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    Christian Theology - Thread: Refugees and refuge.

    1. #21
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Against Edom
      Obadiah 1:1 The Vision of Obadiah. This is what the Lord Yahweh says about Edom: We have heard news from Yahweh, and a messenger has been sent out to the nations to say, “Rise, let us go against Esau.” 2 The day has come: you now are small among the nations; you are utterly despised. 3 Your arrogance has led you astray, you, who live in the clefts of the rock; you, who make the heights your home; you, who say to yourself: Who can bring me down to the ground? 4 Though you soar like the eagle, though you make your nests among the stars, I will bring you down again. 5 If thieves or plunderers come at night, what a disaster awaits you then! Would they not ransack till they had enough? If grape gatherers worked in your vineyard, would they not leave only gleanings? 6 See how Esau has been looted, even his hidden treasures pillaged! 7 You have been driven to the frontiers: and those were your very friends! Those who partook of your bread set for you a trap in secret. 8 Yahweh declares: Shall I not destroy the wise men of Edom on that day, and deprive of sages the mountain of Esau? 9 Your warriors, O Teman, will be afraid, and all from Mount Esau will be slaughtered. 10 For the violence done to Jacob, your brother, you will be disgraced and destroyed forever. 11 You stood aloof in waiting, when strangers carried off his wealth; when foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were as guilty as the rest of them. 12 Do not come to see and gloat over the misfortune of your brother. Do not exult over Judah’s ruin, nor brag on the day of her destruction. 13 Do not go through the gate of my people on the day of their disgrace; nor gloat over them in their misfortune on the day of their adversity; nor lay your hands upon their possessions on the day of their destruction. 14 Do not wait at the crossroad to slay their stragglers; nor betray their survivors on the day of their disaster. 15 For the day of Yahweh is near for every nation. As you have done to another, so, to you, will it be done. Whatever you have done will come back upon your head. 16 For as you have drunk on my holy mountain, so will the surrounding nation drink; drink, and drink up to the brim… Then they shall be as if they had never been. 17 But there will be survivors on Mount Zion —a holy remnant. The house of Jacob will take possession of its own inheritance. 18 The nation of Jacob will be a fire, the nation of Joseph a flame; but those of Esau will be a stubble; and they will burn and consume them. And of Esau’s house, none will remain, for it is Yahweh who has spoken. 19 People from the Negeb will occupy Esau’s mountains; those from the plains, the land of the Philistines; they will occupy Ephraim and Samaria, and Benjamin will possess Gilead. 20 The Israelite exiles who are in Canaan will possess Phoenicia as far as Zarephtah; the exiles from Jerusalem now in Sepharad will possess the towns of the Negeb. 21 Deliverers will ascend Mount Zion to rule over the mountains of Esau, —then Yahweh will reign.

      Does that help?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      How much extra context do you want?
      I wasn't asking for extra context. I was saying that your taking it out of context. The Lord was speaking in the passage you referred to in Obadiah to the enemies of Israel and how they were treating them when they went into exile. It isn't the same at all. If you look at verse 12 they were taking advantage of the exile and ruin of Israel instead of having mercy on them. That is the context.

    3. Likes atpollard, MennoSota liked this post
    4. #23
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I wasn't asking for extra context. I was saying that your taking it out of context. The Lord was speaking in the passage you referred to in Obadiah to the enemies of Israel and how they were treating them when they went into exile. It isn't the same at all. If you look at verse 12 they were taking advantage of the exile and ruin of Israel instead of having mercy on them. That is the context.
      It actually opens the door to some interesting questions. If Christians are “Judah” in that verse and the modern Refugees are the “Edomites” then those oppressing the refugees are the “worldly kingdoms” (like Assyria) that God is unsung to destroy the “Edomite” Refugees for their past sins against God’s Christians.

      Would it be the duty of a Christian to attempt to thwart the justice of God by intervening in a war between two worldly peoples that God is dealing with, or should Christians just watch in fear and awe as God works out his justice.

      Perhaps Christians need to focus more on what God actually told us to be doing and less on what scripture does not call us to do. [shrug] Just a thought.

    5. #24
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      The reason for the caravans is in part for the sake of the relative safety of those seeking immigration into the USA...
      Those are long treks, and a small family is just too vulnerable walking it alone... Mexicans have a better chance... Because they are the "locals"...

      A large group that sticks together can provide for the protection of its members...

      But what is disturbing is the role of the "community organizers" (with weapons) in the caravan wherein they are passing out money to at least some of the walkers... So this is not the walkers paying for their security, but the security paying for the walkers... At least in part... And the big trucks have not yet been identified as to their source, nor the sponsors providing for the group...

      And it is turning into political hay for Trump right up to the elections...

      Strange times - Highlighting our need for border security...

      Arsenios

    6. #25
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      Yes Mexico offered papers and jobs to any who chose to and they turned it down they need stopped and not be allowed to cross the border
      Isaiah 40:31

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I wasn't asking for extra context. I was saying that your taking it out of context. The Lord was speaking in the passage you referred to in Obadiah to the enemies of Israel and how they were treating them when they went into exile. It isn't the same at all. If you look at verse 12 they were taking advantage of the exile and ruin of Israel instead of having mercy on them. That is the context.
      "The Lord was speaking in the passage you referred to in Obadiah to the enemies of Israel and how they were treating them when they went into exile." that's right. "It isn't the same at all." That's wrong. The lesson to learn is that God holds guilty those who harass refugees and those who mistreat them when they are in distress.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    8. #27
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      "The Lord was speaking in the passage you referred to in Obadiah to the enemies of Israel and how they were treating them when they went into exile." that's right. "It isn't the same at all." That's wrong. The lesson to learn is that God holds guilty those who harass refugees and those who mistreat them when they are in distress.
      When I go to Disney and see some parent berating a child for not obeying in a mean spirited and hurtful manner, I feel sad for the family and the needless suffering that man/woman dragging that child by the arm is inflicting.

      If that person were screaming at MY child and dragging MY CHILD away by the arm, my reaction would have been much stronger and ‘antisocial’ towards that individual. There is a huge difference between someone abusing their child and someone abusing my child.

      GOD was dishing out punishment on those who had abused HIS children. If you think that there is no difference between how people treat their children and how they treat your children, you have never been a parent.

    9. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      When I go to Disney and see some parent berating a child for not obeying in a mean spirited and hurtful manner, I feel sad for the family and the needless suffering that man/woman dragging that child by the arm is inflicting.

      If that person were screaming at MY child and dragging MY CHILD away by the arm, my reaction would have been much stronger and ‘antisocial’ towards that individual. There is a huge difference between someone abusing their child and someone abusing my child.

      GOD was dishing out punishment on those who had abused HIS children. If you think that there is no difference between how people treat their children and how they treat your children, you have never been a parent.
      Many, probably over 90%, of the "caravan" people are Catholic Christians. They are God's children.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    10. #29
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      But not all of God's children are Catholics. Those caravan of people coming out of war torn countries were not Catholics so much either because most of the Catholics that we had the "N"s on our profiles for were not the ones that could run from the Isis. In the same manner the Sudas couldn't run from the Arabs. Christians divided has been going on for years and is the product of what?
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Many, probably over 90%, of the "caravan" people are Catholic Christians. They are God's children.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

    11. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      But not all of God's children are Catholics. Those caravan of people coming out of war torn countries were not Catholics so much either because most of the Catholics that we had the "N"s on our profiles for were not the ones that could run from the Isis. In the same manner the Sudas couldn't run from the Arabs. Christians divided has been going on for years and is the product of what?
      And they should applu for assuylum in the right way. We cannot and should not allow huge groups of people to enter illegally./
      Isaiah 40:31

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