@Imaginary Day 2;
There were several questions there. I don't think so simple a response is adequate.
Actually, Lamm's response is absolutely on target and it IS that simple....
I spend a lot of times on these posts.... so I appreciate when they are read, lol
A couple here want to make James state that we are saved by TWO things - Christ's works and also our own, that the object of faith in James' writings is two-fold: Jesus and self. THAT is what some of us are disagreeing with. Of course, James correctly holds that faith that IS faith is active. This is also the Lutheran position (see post #55 where I share the classic quote from Luther). But I disagree that James is defending the heresy of Pelagianism and that James is insisting that the saving object of faith is Christ AND self, who/what Christ is/did plus also what SELF is/does. I'm rejecting the point that James is insisting that faith in Christ is meaningless and can't save. Read my posts here. My position has (expectedly) caused a storm.
Lutheranism does not even ATTEMPT to explain the "how" in all this, we call this a "MYSTERY" and refer to the MIRACLE of justification. Obviously, there are some Scriptures on his hard to "fit" together - and so we don't. BUT (and here's the whole enchilada - the whole Reformation debate) we embrace that Jesus is the Savior..... that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life... that salvation is something God does. It is NOT a case that FIRST the dead, atheistic sinner performs works God regards as good - and THEN, as a reward, God gives spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. It is NOT a case that FIRST the dead, atheistic sinner is OBEDIENT to God can then God, as the just response, gives them spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spriit. It is NOT a case that FIRST the person proclaims that Jesus is Lord and THEN as a just response God gives them the free gift of faith, the Holy Spirit and spiritual life. While there is must mystery here, justification is NOT the result of self saving self by being obedient to the Law and the Commands of God...... it seems undeniable that FIRST God operates in our lives (the dynamics of this unknown).... ultimately Jesus is the Savior. Not PART Savior (the part that actually doesn't save anyone), not just a possibility-maker, not just an offeror - but SAVIOR. Yes, once we HAVE spiritual life, HAVE faith in Christ, HAVE the Holy Spirit (all of which Scripture calls a GIFT, never a reward) - THEN we have a whole new reality, and a LOT of things come into play - all things Protestants and Catholics agree on, but that's not the debate. Not in the Reformation. Not in this thread. Not ever at CH. THAT discussion lasts about 3 posts beause everyone agrees - the discussions that go on for pages is justification - the COMING of the gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit. Is Jesus ALONE the Savior (and thus faith ALONE in Him) or is the Savior at least in part self? Are we to look to the Cross or the mirror. Friend, that's the issue. I've given the Protestant view and it always creates a hailstorm (gotta wonder why if there is not profound disagreement on their part)
Arsenios BEGINS with the OBEDIENCE of dead self, obedience to the Law by the dead atheist BEFORE justification (narrow), BEFORE God enters the picture, BEFORE there is any Holy spirit, any life, any faith. His position is it all hinges on dead man's obedience and good works (all a reward for that) BEFORE the Holy Spirit comes to him, BEFORE he has faith, BEFORE he has spiritual life, that God justly rewards the obedience and good works of the dead man with justification. But how does that line up with the following:
1 Corinthians 2:14, "the one without the Holy Spirit does not accept the things of the Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:3, "No one is capable of saying 'Jesus is Lord' without the Holy Spirit."
Hebrews 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
Ephesians 2:1 "You were dead in sin."
Ephesians 2:8, "for by grace you have been saved because of faith and this is not your own doing but is the gift of God."
Creed: "The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life"
And YET - the claim is that people.... without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without spiritual life.... BEFORE these things come..... VOID of these things..... does something pleasing to God (obedience... works.... requesting.... all without faith, without the Holy Spirit. How is it that one without faith nonetheless does a work that is pleasing to God (which God says is "impossible")? How does one without faith and the Holy Spirit nonetheless proclaim Jesus is Lord (which God says is he "cannot")? How is it that Jesus is the Savior BUT His works don't save UNLESS the dead atheistic sinner joins his good works to them? Doesn't that at least make self PART Savior? f we are justified, as is the claim of a couple here, because we FIRST earned it by our obedience, by the good works the dead one does, then Galatians 2:16 and Galatians 2:21 seem not true....
Friend, IF our Catholic and Orthodox friends were saying, "I won't delve into this or explain this - but I agree with Luther, Jesus (alone) IS THE Savior and in no way is self" Okay (welcome to Lutheranism!). Or if they said, "you are 100% correct that Jesus alone is the Savior and faith in Christ alone is saving - but it's critical to note that such faith is active in good works and loving serving to others, and being justified brings a set of BIG calls! Well, great! Welcome to Lutheranism! But when when we post things - we get a hailstorm of debate, post after post of rejection. Should make you think, my friend.
There's a constant absurd assumption that runs through all these threads, too: If God commands, dead people ERGO they have the full ability to achieve it - NO Holy Spirit is needed, NO faith is needed, NO spiritual life is needed (because again, you insist that justification is dependent on one FIRST heeding the will of God - justification is dependent on FIRST fully obeying the Call of God. Think about that. The whole argument is God calls ALL to repentance and faith - ERGO they MUST have the full ability to do just as God wills. Hum......
Well... then there would be no need for Jesus, would there? All God would need to do is command "Be yourselves saved" (could have saved himself a lot of trouble).... All would be fully able to be perfect even as God is perfect and to love all has Christ loved because all can respond to God's calls WITHOUT God doing a thing except issuing the command. Your assumption is absurd. Yes, God calls all the repentance and faith - but it is illogical (and unbiblical) to insist ERGO any one can obey - no need for God at all. At least Pelagius and the Jews and the Muslims give SOME role for God! You just have PURE LAW and dead man all on his own. Your insistence that FIRST comes our good works, our obedience THEN God rewards that with life, faith, and the Holy Spirit is absurd. You are imposing an absurd assumption into some verses.... God commands all to choose life, too: does that mean I asked for life and God gave it to me as a reward 9 months before I was born? Come on...
This is not semantics. All Christianity hinges on the issue of Jesus as the Savior. There is MUCH mystery here.... and mush agreeing in soteriology (at least the sanctification part) but this much is certain: JESUS (alone) IS (factually) THE (one and only, fully, and all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just enabler or possibility-maker or offerer). Those who insist that ACTUALLY it's Jesus + me...... who resurrect the ancient heresy of Pelagianism or worse (sometimes, much worse) are dangerous and should be helped. Defining the context (Justification - the coming of life, faith, Holy Spirit - the changed relationship OR Sanctification - the life of the Christian....... Law or Gospel) helps a lot. It pains me that an issue SO simple, SO important is often so entanged, so confused, so twisted. Especially the very issue on which Christianity is founded.
I hope that helps....
- Josiah
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