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  • Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
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    Christian Theology - Thread: Can faith save him?

    1. #111
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Jas 2:14
      Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου,
      What the profit, my Brothers

      ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν,
      if ever faith should say anyone to have

      ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ;
      But works he should not have?

      μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;
      Is not able the faith to save him?

      What is the profit, my Brothers,
      if anyone should say to have faith
      but not have works?
      Is faith able to save him?

      I mean, it is plainly obvious that without works, the only possible indication that there even might be faith would be that someone should SAY SO... I mean, that is a gimme...


      Arsenios


      Thus, your point is wrong.


      Faith that is faith.... faith that is in the SAVIOR.... means salvation.
      Faith that is NOT faith (but just a CLAIM, just meaningless words chanted.... a SAYING).... faith that is NOT in the Savior... does NOT mean salvation


      Now, faith that is in CHRIST'S works for us is joined with OUR works for others (James's whole point.... exactly what Luther said, see post # 55)

      Your persistent (and absurd) assmption is something James does NOT say: that since faith in Christ's works is joined by our works, thus BOTH are salvic.... that we just rely, trust in OUR OWN works as well as in Jesus' works so that Jesus is NOT the Savior.

      James is NOT, my friend, denying Jesus as THE Savior.... James is NOT saying we are saved (at least in part) by our OWN works so that self is PART Savior...... he's not even promoting the heresy of Pelagianism.

      James is saying that saving faith is an active thing. See post #55. Listen to what Luther said.... read what James said..... James is NOT denying the Gosple, James is NOT promoting a heresy.



      - Josiah




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. #112
      Arsenios's Avatar
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      [QUOTE=Josiah;146896]Thus, your point is wrong.[quote]

      Your persistent (and absurd) assmption is something James does NOT say:

      You will do well to tell me your assumptions, and I will tell you mine...

      Your assumption that you can tell me my assumptions is PRESUMPTION!

      that since faith in Christ's works is joined by our works, thus BOTH are salvic....
      I do not and have not ever said any such thing, and have specifically denied exactly this:

      eg Our works are salvific - They are not...

      Yet you continue this false accusation...

      that we just rely, trust in OUR OWN works as well as in Jesus' works so that Jesus is NOT the Savior.
      That is ENTIRELY YOUR OWN IDEA and no one else's...

      Full blown delusion is hard to argue against, you know...

      Not recommended for the faint of heart, I say!

      James is saying that saving faith is an active thing.
      James makes no mention of "SAVING FAITH"...

      He speaks of the Faith WITH the works of the Faith,
      and of the Faith WITHOUT the works of the Faith...

      The conclusion you are avoiding is that Christ's Faith IS a Work,
      or else you have Demonic Faith without the works of faith...

      BECAUSE faith without works is dead...

      And more, he clearly states that by works is faith perfected/matured...

      You need to put this together with the Parable of the Sower...

      Salvation is squandered, rejected and lost for lack of works, whatever the reason...

      The works of the Faith of Christ ARE Salvific...
      But only in a derivative way...
      Only insofar as they are perfecting the Faith of Christ in us...
      They do not contribute to Salvation, but do contribute to the perfecting of faith in us, through which we attain the Salvation that only Christ gives, and this only because this is how Christ established His Kingdom on earth...

      Do you also disagree that the Call of God is unto Repentance from sin???

      Arsenios

    3. #113
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Our works are salvific - They are not...

      Good. Then we are in AGREEMENT. And one has to wonder why you constantly, at every opportunity, debate that point with me..... Why you so persistently repudiate what I state. Hum.....





      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      The conclusion you are avoiding is that Christ's Faith IS a Work

      1. What does Christ has faith in? What faith that He has is a "work?"

      2. The reality that we believe is a work - the question is, of whom? The Bible says it is "the free gift of God". The Bible says that NO ONE is even CAPABLE of even saying the words 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit empowers. And I agree to what the Bible says, so faith is the "free gift of God".... Now did God WORK to give it to us? I don't know what Scriptures you are thinking of there.... but I guess I won't argue the point; He does GIVE it and I suppose one could assume that involves some work.


      But we are in agreement, you claim! OUR work has nothing to do with justification (narrow). OUR work is in no way salvic. Welcome to Protestantism! Welcome to our "side" of the Reformation debate (at least on the issue the RCC said WAS the issue)





      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      he clearly states that by works is faith perfected/matured...

      .... a point I already addressed but you always ignore it. I'm not sure we disagree because you've always ignored whenever I've responded to this.





      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      You need to put this together with the Parable of the Sower...

      God gives life. Nothing dead steals it from Him. The Creed you proclaim every Sunday says that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life. I assume you agree with that since you proclaim it as so every week. The soil gives life to nothing.

      But this seems irrelevant since you now claim that you agree with Protestants - and OUR works are not salvic..... not now, not ever.... now totally or partly....






      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      Salvation is squandered, rejected and lost for lack of works, whatever the reason...

      Another discussion for another day and thread.....

      Nearly all Protestants agree that believers can "fall".... You'll find a tiny, tiny number of uber-Calvinists who hold to Once Saved ALWAYS saved but this view is rejected even by most Calvinists.

      I disagree with you that our lack of works IS what causes that, but I won't argue the point (especially in this thread).... MY point is that James is NOT teaching that salvation comes as a result of OUR works (alone or accompanied by Christ's works) - and you have been repudiating and debating that at every opportunity.





      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      The works of the Faith of Christ ARE Salvific...

      My frequent frustration with you, my esteemed friend and brother....


      Wbich is it? OUR works are not salvic or they ARE? Are you saying that the CHRIST'S works (which HE does because of HIS faith) is salvic..... or that OUR works which WE do in faith are salvic? Whose faith? Whose works?




      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      They do not contribute to Salvation, but do contribute to the perfecting of faith in us, through which we attain the Salvation that only Christ gives, and this only because this is how Christ established His Kingdom on earth...

      When you make up your mind, let us know....


      I hold that the divine gift of faith in Christ is salvic because Christ alone is THE one and only, all-sufficient Savior. I reject that OUR works are ALSO salvic (in whole or in part) so that Jesus is not THE Savior but at most PART Savior and self at least PART Savior, that what saves is faith in CHRIST and SELF. You have debated that position endlessly.... while stating that you fully agree with it. Friend, this seems to happen in a LOT of our discussions, lol.

      I don't at all dispute that faith does MORE than simply bring to us salvation (and if this topic were about discipleship, I'd address it but it would be hijacking here). We are saved not only for heaven but for good works! This Scripture plainly and repeatedly says, and this Luther and Calvin stressed enormously (see post # 55 for just one example). Ourwe faith GROWS both in terms of depth and breath ... and impacts our heart and soul, our mind and attitudes, our lives. You may call this "perfection" (and I'm fine with that - it's how I see the verse you quoted).... but this is not HOW or WHY we attain spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior and the Holy Spirit (the issue before us) - it's what RESULTS from it. No one denies that..... Protestants stressed that at least as much as Catholicism did (most say more).... see post #55 for just one example. And YES, I think that's EXACTLY what James is talking about (as I've read over and over - you always debate me when I do).





      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios
      Do you also disagree that the Call of God is unto Repentance from sin???

      Again, yet again, still one more time.... I do NOT, NOT at all, NOT for a second, deny that God issues that Call, that mandate. What I DISAGREE with is the assumption that ERGO the dead, atheistic, unregenerate man entirely VOID of faith, VOID of spiritual life, VOID of the Holy Spirit can or will respond to that Call.... and more to the point..... his so responding is what causes his salvation, is what mandates that God thus give to him - as a just payment - spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. I've said this SO many times.... and you have debated with me every time I have.




      - Josiah




      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 10-22-2018 at 12:14 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    4. #114
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      [QUOTE=Arsenios;146908][QUOTE=Josiah;146896]Thus, your point is wrong.

      Your persistent (and absurd) assmption is something James does NOT say:

      You will do well to tell me your assumptions, and I will tell you mine...

      Your assumption that you can tell me my assumptions is PRESUMPTION!



      I do not and have not ever said any such thing, and have specifically denied exactly this:

      eg Our works are salvific - They are not...

      Yet you continue this false accusation...



      That is ENTIRELY YOUR OWN IDEA and no one else's...

      Full blown delusion is hard to argue against, you know...

      Not recommended for the faint of heart, I say!



      James makes no mention of "SAVING FAITH"...

      He speaks of the Faith WITH the works of the Faith,
      and of the Faith WITHOUT the works of the Faith...

      The conclusion you are avoiding is that Christ's Faith IS a Work,
      or else you have Demonic Faith without the works of faith...

      BECAUSE faith without works is dead...

      And more, he clearly states that by works is faith perfected/matured...

      You need to put this together with the Parable of the Sower...

      Salvation is squandered, rejected and lost for lack of works, whatever the reason...

      The works of the Faith of Christ ARE Salvific...
      But only in a derivative way...
      Only insofar as they are perfecting the Faith of Christ in us...
      They do not contribute to Salvation, but do contribute to the perfecting of faith in us, through which we attain the Salvation that only Christ gives, and this only because this is how Christ established His Kingdom on earth...

      Do you also disagree that the Call of God is unto Repentance from sin???

      Arsenios
      Did Christ (God) need faith? You are making that claim, Arsenios.
      I see nowhere that God needed faith to save people. Share the scripture and persuade me.

    5. #115
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      Holy scripture has a word to say about what motivates people to fight.
      James 4:1-4 1 What causes wars, and what causes fighting among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? 2 You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    6. #116
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Holy scripture has a word to say about what motivates people to fight.
      James 4:1-4 1 What causes wars, and what causes fighting among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? 2 You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
      I don't see the relevance to the thread in your post.

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