ImaginaryDay2
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Can faith save him?
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ImaginaryDay2
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I've restored my full quote to be helpful as the hatchet job misrepresented what I said. Here's what I initially replied to:
How do you figure that a gift is not "merited" if we have to ask for it? I'm not arguing Luke 11:9 - certainly we ask for what we need ("give us this day..."); however, does such a gracious God require our asking before we receive such a gift as His own Spirit?
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Can faith same him? asks saint James. His question is answered in his letter. The answer is no. Faith cannot save whenever faith is alone. Good works are necessary for salvation.
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James says "yes."
James 1:21--
Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
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Andrew
Matt 18:15
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Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 1:21-25
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In another thread (I think it was "Salvation") one poster wrote that the gospel is summarised under these two points:
Later saint James repudiates claims that faith alone can save writing:
The time has been fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near.
Saint James presents the same message when he writes:- Repent and
- believe in the Gospel.
James 1:19-27 You know this, my most beloved brothers. So let every man be quick to listen, but slow to speak and slow to anger. 20 For the anger of man does not accomplish the justice of God. 21 Because of this, having cast away all uncleanness and an abundance of malice, receive with meekness the newly-grafted Word, which is able to save your souls. 22 So be doers of the Word, and not listeners only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a listener of the Word, but not also a doer, he is comparable to a man gazing into a mirror upon the face that he was born with; 24 and after considering himself, he went away and promptly forgot what he had seen. 25 But he who gazes upon the perfect law of liberty, and who remains in it, is not a forgetful hearer, but instead a doer of the work. He shall be blessed in what he does. 26 But if anyone considers himself to be religious, but he does not restrain his tongue, but instead seduces his own heart: such a one"s religion is vanity. 27 This is religion, clean and undefiled before God the Father: to visit orphans and widows in their tribulations, and to keep yourself immaculate, apart from this age.
Later saint James repudiates claims that faith alone can save writing:
James 2:14-26 My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? 15 So if a brother or sister is naked and daily in need of food, 16 and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? 17 Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. 18 Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. 20 So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? 23 And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? 25 Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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James 2:14 uses the word "says" (in Greek it is λέγω) which is defined thus in The Word Study Greek Lexicon:
Thus the verse is rightly translated as What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? the emphasis is not on the word "says" as if the one who says he has faith is telling a lie and thus "merely says" he has faith when in fact he does not have it. The emphasis is on the absence of works - specifically good works - which makes the faith that the man has insufficient to save him. In fact the absence of works makes the man's faith worthless. The meaning of λέγω in this verse is "to affirm" or "to maintain" and it implies that the man (or woman) maintains with some vigour that he (or she) has faith. The weakness in their testimony is not that they do not have faith but rather than their faith does no good works and hence is "dead". The reality of their faith is not in question it is the effective working of it that is refuted in the passage.
(B) As modified by the context, where the meaning lies not so much in légō, as in the adjuncts, e.g.:
- (1) Before questions, meaning to ask, inquire, followed by the words spoken (Mat 9:14; Mar 5:30; Mar 14:14; Luk 7:20; Joh 7:11; Rom 10:19). With the dat. of person (Mar 6:37; Luk 16:5; Luk 22:11). Followed by ei (G1487), if, whether (Act 25:20). With the dat. of person (Act 21:37).
- (2) Before replies meaning to answer, reply, followed by the words spoken, e.g., after a direct question (Mat 17:25; Joh 18:17). With the dat. of person (Mat 18:22; Mat 20:7, Mat 20:21). Also with hóti (G3754), that, indicating citation (Mat 19:8; Joh 20:13). Preceded by apokritheís (G611), having answered (Mar 8:29; Luk 3:11). Without a preceding question, with dat. of person and the words spoken (Mat 4:10; Mat 26:35; Luk 16:29; Joh 2:4). With apokritheís, and so forth (Mar 9:19; Luk 11:45).
- (3) In affirmations meaning to affirm, maintain, e.g., with the words or proposition uttered (Mar 14:31; Gal 4:1; 1Jn 2:4). Followed by the acc. and inf. (Mat 22:23; Luk 24:23). With the acc. implied (Jas 2:14; 1Jn 2:6, 1Jn 2:9). Followed by hóti (G3754), that, instead of acc. and inf. (Mat 17:10; Rom 4:9). With a dat. of person in the formulas légō soi versus humín, I say unto thee (or unto you), in solemn affirmations, generally (Mat 11:22; Mar 11:24; Luk 4:25). With amḗn (G281), verily (Mat 5:18; Mat 25:12; Joh 1:51; Joh 3:3; Joh 8:51). In the middle of a clause (Mat 11:9; Luk 7:14; Luk 11:51; Luk 15:10). Followed by hóti (G3754), that, for acc. with inf. (Mat 3:9; Mar 9:13; Luk 4:24; Joh 3:11).
- (4) Of teaching, meaning to teach, inculcate, e.g., with the proposition taught (Mat 15:5); with the acc. (Act 1:3); with the acc. and inf. (Act 21:21); with the acc. implied (Act 15:24); with the acc. and dat. of person (Mat 10:27; Joh 16:12).
- (5) Of predictions, to foretell, prophesy, with the acc. and dat. (Mar 10:32); with the acc. (Luk 9:31); with the dat. (Joh 13:19).
- (6) Of what is spoken with authority, to command, direct, charge, and used in an absolute sense (Mat 23:3); with the acc. (Luk 6:46); with the acc. and dat. (Mar 13:37; Joh 2:5); with the dat. of person and imper. (Mat 5:44; Mat 8:4; Mat 20:8; Mar 5:41; Mar 6:10; Luk 5:24; Joh 2:7-8); with the dat. and inf. (Rev 13:14); with the inf. (Rom 2:22); followed by hína (G2443), so that (Act 19:4). In the sense of to charge, exhort, with the dat. (Act 5:38); with the dat. and inf. (Act 21:4); with toúto (G5124), this, followed by the inf. (Eph 4:17).
- (7) Of calling out, with the meaning of to call, exclaim (Mat 25:11; Luk 13:25; Act 14:11).
- (8) Figuratively, to say or speak by writing, by letter, e.g., with the words written (Luk 1:63; Luk 20:42); with the acc. (1Co 7:6); implied (Phm 1:21); with the acc. and dat. (1Co 15:51); with the dat. (1Co 6:5; 1Co 10:15; 2Co 6:13); with hóti (G3754), that, for acc. and inf. (Gal 5:2); toúto hóti (1Th 4:15). Followed by an adv. (2Co 7:3; 2Co 11:16; Php 4:11; also Sept.: 2Ki 10:6).
Thus the verse is rightly translated as What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? the emphasis is not on the word "says" as if the one who says he has faith is telling a lie and thus "merely says" he has faith when in fact he does not have it. The emphasis is on the absence of works - specifically good works - which makes the faith that the man has insufficient to save him. In fact the absence of works makes the man's faith worthless. The meaning of λέγω in this verse is "to affirm" or "to maintain" and it implies that the man (or woman) maintains with some vigour that he (or she) has faith. The weakness in their testimony is not that they do not have faith but rather than their faith does no good works and hence is "dead". The reality of their faith is not in question it is the effective working of it that is refuted in the passage.
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Arsenios
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Jas 2:14
Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου,
What the profit, my Brothers
ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν,
if ever faith should say anyone to have
ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ;
But works he should not have?
μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;
Is not able the faith to save him?
What is the profit, my Brothers,
if anyone should say to have faith
but not have works?
Is faith able to save him?
I mean, it is plainly obvious that without works, the only possible indication that there even might be faith would be that someone should SAY SO... I mean, that is a gimme...
Arsenios
Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου,
What the profit, my Brothers
ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν,
if ever faith should say anyone to have
ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ;
But works he should not have?
μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;
Is not able the faith to save him?
What is the profit, my Brothers,
if anyone should say to have faith
but not have works?
Is faith able to save him?
I mean, it is plainly obvious that without works, the only possible indication that there even might be faith would be that someone should SAY SO... I mean, that is a gimme...
Arsenios
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Your translation clearly shows that faith does save and works will follow.
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Thus, your point is wrong.
Faith that is faith.... faith that is in the SAVIOR.... means salvation.
Faith that is NOT faith (but just a CLAIM, just meaningless words chanted.... a SAYING).... faith that is NOT in the Savior... does NOT mean salvation
Now, faith that is in CHRIST'S works for us is joined with OUR works for others (James's whole point.... exactly what Luther said, see post # 55)
Your persistent (and absurd) assmption is something James does NOT say: that since faith in Christ's works is joined by our works, thus BOTH are salvic.... that we just rely, trust in OUR OWN works as well as in Jesus' works so that Jesus is NOT the Savior.
James is NOT, my friend, denying Jesus as THE Savior.... James is NOT saying we are saved (at least in part) by our OWN works so that self is PART Savior...... he's not even promoting the heresy of Pelagianism.
James is saying that saving faith is an active thing. See post #55. Listen to what Luther said.... read what James said..... James is NOT denying the Gosple, James is NOT promoting a heresy.
- Josiah
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Arsenios
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Good. Then we are in AGREEMENT. And one has to wonder why you constantly, at every opportunity, debate that point with me..... Why you so persistently repudiate what I state. Hum.....
Arsenios said:
1. What does Christ has faith in? What faith that He has is a "work?"
2. The reality that we believe is a work - the question is, of whom? The Bible says it is "the free gift of God". The Bible says that NO ONE is even CAPABLE of even saying the words 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit empowers. And I agree to what the Bible says, so faith is the "free gift of God".... Now did God WORK to give it to us? I don't know what Scriptures you are thinking of there.... but I guess I won't argue the point; He does GIVE it and I suppose one could assume that involves some work.
But we are in agreement, you claim! OUR work has nothing to do with justification (narrow). OUR work is in no way salvic. Welcome to Protestantism! Welcome to our "side" of the Reformation debate (at least on the issue the RCC said WAS the issue)
Arsenios said:
.... a point I already addressed but you always ignore it. I'm not sure we disagree because you've always ignored whenever I've responded to this.
Arsenios said:
God gives life. Nothing dead steals it from Him. The Creed you proclaim every Sunday says that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life. I assume you agree with that since you proclaim it as so every week. The soil gives life to nothing.
But this seems irrelevant since you now claim that you agree with Protestants - and OUR works are not salvic..... not now, not ever.... now totally or partly....
Arsenios said:
Another discussion for another day and thread.....
Nearly all Protestants agree that believers can "fall".... You'll find a tiny, tiny number of uber-Calvinists who hold to Once Saved ALWAYS saved but this view is rejected even by most Calvinists.
I disagree with you that our lack of works IS what causes that, but I won't argue the point (especially in this thread).... MY point is that James is NOT teaching that salvation comes as a result of OUR works (alone or accompanied by Christ's works) - and you have been repudiating and debating that at every opportunity.
Arsenios said:
My frequent frustration with you, my esteemed friend and brother....
Wbich is it? OUR works are not salvic or they ARE? Are you saying that the CHRIST'S works (which HE does because of HIS faith) is salvic..... or that OUR works which WE do in faith are salvic? Whose faith? Whose works?
Arsenios said:
When you make up your mind, let us know....
I hold that the divine gift of faith in Christ is salvic because Christ alone is THE one and only, all-sufficient Savior. I reject that OUR works are ALSO salvic (in whole or in part) so that Jesus is not THE Savior but at most PART Savior and self at least PART Savior, that what saves is faith in CHRIST and SELF. You have debated that position endlessly.... while stating that you fully agree with it. Friend, this seems to happen in a LOT of our discussions, lol.
I don't at all dispute that faith does MORE than simply bring to us salvation (and if this topic were about discipleship, I'd address it but it would be hijacking here). We are saved not only for heaven but for good works! This Scripture plainly and repeatedly says, and this Luther and Calvin stressed enormously (see post # 55 for just one example). Ourwe faith GROWS both in terms of depth and breath ... and impacts our heart and soul, our mind and attitudes, our lives. You may call this "perfection" (and I'm fine with that - it's how I see the verse you quoted).... but this is not HOW or WHY we attain spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior and the Holy Spirit (the issue before us) - it's what RESULTS from it. No one denies that..... Protestants stressed that at least as much as Catholicism did (most say more).... see post #55 for just one example. And YES, I think that's EXACTLY what James is talking about (as I've read over and over - you always debate me when I do).
Arsenios said:
Again, yet again, still one more time.... I do NOT, NOT at all, NOT for a second, deny that God issues that Call, that mandate. What I DISAGREE with is the assumption that ERGO the dead, atheistic, unregenerate man entirely VOID of faith, VOID of spiritual life, VOID of the Holy Spirit can or will respond to that Call.... and more to the point..... his so responding is what causes his salvation, is what mandates that God thus give to him - as a just payment - spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. I've said this SO many times.... and you have debated with me every time I have.
- Josiah
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MennoSota
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Holy scripture has a word to say about what motivates people to fight.
James 4:1-4 1 What causes wars, and what causes fighting among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? 2 You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4 Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
MennoSota
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I don't see the relevance to the thread in your post.