• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 116

    Christian Theology - Thread: Can faith save him?

    1. #1
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,187
      CH Cash
      20,596
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,653
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.7%
      Rep Power
      681

      Can faith save him?

      James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

      Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.

      This also follows from ver. 19. where he says: Thou believest that there is one God: thou dost well. And the same is evident by the words John 12:42. where it is said, that many of the chief men also believed in him, (Christ)....but did not confess it, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue.

      Now that faith alone is not sufficient to save a man, St. James declares by this example: If any one say to the poor and naked, go in peace, be you warmed and filled, and give them nothing, what shall it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, &c. i.e. such a faith, though it be not lost and destroyed, yet it remains in a soul that is spiritually dead, when it is not accompanied with charity and grace, which is the life of the soul, and without which faith can never bring us to eternal life.

      In this sense is to be understood the 20th and 26th verses of this chapter, when faith is again said to be dead without good works. This is also the doctrine of St. Paul, when he tells us that a saving faith is a faith that worketh by charity, Galatians 5:6. When he says, that although faith were strong enough to remove mountains, a man is nothing without charity. (1 Corinthians 13:2.) When he teaches us again, that not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [Romans 2:13.] St. John teacheth the same (1 John 3:14.) He that loveth not, remaineth in death.

      But of this elsewhere in this place makes a very candid and remarkable profession of his faith, very different from that of his associates in the Proreformation, called Solifideans [who pretend one is justified by faith alone]:
      "There are some who say, 'My works indeed are not as they ought to be,' but my faith is firm, my salvation is therefore out of danger. This opinion, which has sprung up in this our unhappy age, and recommends itself under the name of reformed doctrine, ought to be opposed by every lover of piety, and all who wish well to their neighbour's salvation....no faith has ever availed any man, unless it were accompanied by such works as he had time and opportunity to perform."
      In vain do we glory in our faith, unless our lives and works bear testimony of the same. Faith without charity is dead, and charity cannot exist without good works. He who bears the fruits of Christian piety, shews that he has the root, which is faith what the soul is to the body. See the remainder of this chapter.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #2
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,772
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,193
      CH Challenge
      270
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      69,586
      Level
      64
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.35%
      Rep Power
      905
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

      Again, yet again, still one more time.... James is writing to CHRISTIANS, to those already given the divine GIFTS of spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ (those justified in the narrow sense). Context matters, my friend. This isn't about how narrow justification comes about, it's not saying that we are our own Savior by our works making Jesus a joke, the Gospel wrong and Christianity wrong.


      James' point is what Luther said, "faith is busy with love." Faith that IS faith impacts what we think, say and do.... it normally reveals itself, it shows its true nature. Faith is that ONLY a chanted word, an emotional FEELING, is not faith at all. Friend, no one on the planet claims what some Catholics state, that good works are bad and to be avoided. We all have ALWAYS totally agreed: OUR good works are good.... and essential.... and associated with our faith. The disagreement has NEVER, not ever, not once, been about that: the issue your denomination split Western Christianity over is whether we are justified by JESUS' works or by our own, or who is the Savior? Do we gain life, faith and the Holy Spirit because of OUR works or CHRISTS' works? Is justification (narrow) a gift from God or a reward for what each self earns for each self? The issue, your denomination stressed, is JUSTIFICATION, not - repeat NOT - Sanctification (what faith does.... what a Christian is called and empowered and directed to do).


      And again, you are continuing your absurd point: that is two things are associated (even inseparable) ERGO they MUST have the same function (in this case, justification). It's a silly, absurd, assumption that we hear from some Catholics all the time. NO ONE DENIES James' sound point: but it does NOT mean ergo we are justified by OUR works (making Jesus a sick joke and the Gospel wrong). My new Subaru has both an engine and brakes. You can't get a Subaru Forester without BOTH an engine and brakes. But it is just silly to dogmatically insist that it's ergo the brakes that propel the car. That doesn't mean both are not essential, it only means they don't have the same function or role. Catholics like to imply that because OUR works are associated with faith, ergo our works have a role in our justification. It's an absurd, silly argument we don't hear from Catholic theologians or pastors but certainly from Catholic laity and at Catholic websites.


      But we've been over this, many times. In many threads.





      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    3. #3
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,827
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,935
      CH Challenge
      84
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      15,318
      Level
      35
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.23%
      Rep Power
      429
      I think this just highlights how true, saving faith will result in works. If a person says he has faith then there will be proof of that through actions.

    4. #4
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,187
      CH Cash
      20,596
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,653
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.7%
      Rep Power
      681
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I think this just highlights how true, saving faith will result in works. If a person says he has faith then there will be proof of that through actions.
      "Real faith" is like the "No true Scotsman" thing. Obviously if a person contends that "faith alone" saves then they need to invent "true faith" and its opposite "false faith" to maintain their doctrine. Saint James doesn't say anything about "true faith" or "false faith" he just teaches about faith and how it is unable to save anybody when it is without good works.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. Likes Arsenios liked this post
    6. #5
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,827
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,935
      CH Challenge
      84
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      15,318
      Level
      35
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.23%
      Rep Power
      429
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      "Real faith" is like the "No true Scotsman" thing. Obviously if a person contends that "faith alone" saves then they need to invent "true faith" and its opposite "false faith" to maintain their doctrine. Saint James doesn't say anything about "true faith" or "false faith" he just teaches about faith and how it is unable to save anybody when it is without good works.
      Yes, I understand

    7. #6
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      2,555
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      13,026
      CH Challenge
      298
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,882
      Level
      38
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      2.11%
      Rep Power
      540
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
      Yes. Of course. The verse you quoted makes that more than clear.

      Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.
      Not so. The verse you started with, James 2:14, flatly states, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?

      If a man claims to have faith, but does not have faith, it is pretty obvious that he will not be saved...by faith. Not only does the statement refer to false claims of faith, but it also implies that if the man truly had faith, it would save him. If not, James would not be making it the focus of his epistle.

    8. Likes Josiah, atpollard, DHoffmann liked this post
    9. #7
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,772
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,193
      CH Challenge
      270
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      69,586
      Level
      64
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      66.35%
      Rep Power
      905
      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post

      If a man claims to have faith, but does not have faith, it is pretty obvious that he will not be saved...by faith. Not only does the statement refer to false claims of faith, but it also implies that if the man truly had faith, it would save him. If not, James would not be making it the focus of his epistle.

      Yup.



      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    10. #8
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      913
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,767
      CH Challenge
      42
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,758
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      23.06%
      Rep Power
      209
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

      Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.
      [James 2:14-17, 26 NLT] 14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don't show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, "Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well"--but then you don't give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? 17 So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. ... 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

      Could you explain how a “true faith without good works” can also be a “dead and useless” faith?
      I do not think you have correctly quoted the message from James.

    11. Likes MennoSota, DHoffmann liked this post
    12. #9
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      913
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,767
      CH Challenge
      42
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,758
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      23.06%
      Rep Power
      209
      [John 3:13-15 NLT] 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

      [John 3:16-17 NLT] 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

      [John 3:18-21 NLT] 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

      [John 3:31-36 NLT] 31 "He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else. 32 He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but how few believe what he tells them! 33 Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true. 34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."

      Is God trying to tell us something?
      I sense a pattern, but can’t quite put my finger on it.

    13. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    14. #10
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,187
      CH Cash
      20,596
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,653
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      26.7%
      Rep Power
      681
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      [James 2:14-17, 26 NLT] 14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don't show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, "Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well"--but then you don't give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? 17 So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. ... 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

      Could you explain how a “true faith without good works” can also be a “dead and useless” faith?
      I do not think you have correctly quoted the message from James.
      The passage reads thus:
      James 2:14 DRB What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
      In the KJV it says:
      James 2:14 KJV What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
      The commentator wrote:
      Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to shew against the disciple of Simon , the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works. This also follows from ver. 19. where he says: Thou believest that there is one God: thou dost well. And the same is evident by the words John 12:42. where it is said, that many of the chief men also believed in him, (Christ)....but did not confess it, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. Now that faith alone is not sufficient to save a man, St. James declares by this example: If any one say to the poor and naked, go in peace, be you warmed and filled, and give them nothing, what shall it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, &c. i.e. such a faith, though it be not lost and destroyed, yet it remains in a soul that is spiritually dead, when it is not accompanied with charity and grace, which is the life of the soul, and without which faith can never bring us to eternal life. In this sense is to be understood the 20th and 26th verses of this chapter, when faith is again said to be dead without good works. This is also the doctrine of St. Paul, when he tells us that a saving faith is a faith that worketh by charity, Galatians 5:6. When he says, that although faith were strong enough to remove mountains, a man is nothing without charity. (1 Corinthians 13:2.) When he teacheth us again, that not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [Romans 2:13.] St. John teacheth the same (1 John 3:14.) He that loveth not, remaineth in death. But of this elsewhere. (Witham)

      --- Grotius in this place makes a very candid and remarkable profession of his faith, very different from that of his associates in the pretended reformation, called Solifideans [who pretend one is justified by faith alone]: "There are some who say, 'My works indeed are not as they ought to be,' but my faith is firm, my salvation is therefore out of danger. This opinion, which has sprung up in this our unhappy age, and recommends itself under the name of reformed doctrine, ought to be opposed by every lover of piety, and all who wish well to their neighbour's salvation....no faith has ever availed any man, unless it were accompanied by such works as he had time and opportunity to perform." His words are: "Opera quidem mea non recta sunt, sed fides recta est, ac propterea de salute non peri****or....Renata est hoc infelici sæculo ea sententia et quidem sub nomine repurgatæ doctrinæ, cui omnes qui pietatem et salutem proximi amant, se debent opponere....cœterum nulla cuiquam fides profuit, sine tali opere, quale tempus permittebat," &c. In vain do we glory in our faith, unless our lives and works bear testimony of the same. Faith without charity is dead, and charity cannot exist without good works. He who bears the fruits of Christian piety, shews that he has the root, which is faith what the soul is to the body. See the remainder of this chapter.
      James makes no distinction between "true faith" and "false faith" even though the commentator does. For James it is all faith. Some faith works and it is blessed by God and some does not and it is cursed. Even demons believe and tremble in fear knowing their end.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •