Can faith save him?

MoreCoffee

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James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.

This also follows from ver. 19. where he says: Thou believest that there is one God: thou dost well. And the same is evident by the words John 12:42. where it is said, that many of the chief men also believed in him, (Christ)....but did not confess it, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue.

Now that faith alone is not sufficient to save a man, St. James declares by this example: If any one say to the poor and naked, go in peace, be you warmed and filled, and give them nothing, what shall it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, &c. i.e. such a faith, though it be not lost and destroyed, yet it remains in a soul that is spiritually dead, when it is not accompanied with charity and grace, which is the life of the soul, and without which faith can never bring us to eternal life.

In this sense is to be understood the 20th and 26th verses of this chapter, when faith is again said to be dead without good works. This is also the doctrine of St. Paul, when he tells us that a saving faith is a faith that worketh by charity, Galatians 5:6. When he says, that although faith were strong enough to remove mountains, a man is nothing without charity. (1 Corinthians 13:2.) When he teaches us again, that not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [Romans 2:13.] St. John teacheth the same (1 John 3:14.) He that loveth not, remaineth in death.

But of this elsewhere in this place makes a very candid and remarkable profession of his faith, very different from that of his associates in the Proreformation, called Solifideans [who pretend one is justified by faith alone]:
"There are some who say, 'My works indeed are not as they ought to be,' but my faith is firm, my salvation is therefore out of danger. This opinion, which has sprung up in this our unhappy age, and recommends itself under the name of reformed doctrine, ought to be opposed by every lover of piety, and all who wish well to their neighbour's salvation....no faith has ever availed any man, unless it were accompanied by such works as he had time and opportunity to perform."​
In vain do we glory in our faith, unless our lives and works bear testimony of the same. Faith without charity is dead, and charity cannot exist without good works. He who bears the fruits of Christian piety, shews that he has the root, which is faith what the soul is to the body. See the remainder of this chapter.
 

Josiah

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James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Again, yet again, still one more time.... James is writing to CHRISTIANS, to those already given the divine GIFTS of spiritual life, the Holy Spirit, faith in Christ (those justified in the narrow sense). Context matters, my friend. This isn't about how narrow justification comes about, it's not saying that we are our own Savior by our works making Jesus a joke, the Gospel wrong and Christianity wrong.


James' point is what Luther said, "faith is busy with love." Faith that IS faith impacts what we think, say and do.... it normally reveals itself, it shows its true nature. Faith is that ONLY a chanted word, an emotional FEELING, is not faith at all. Friend, no one on the planet claims what some Catholics state, that good works are bad and to be avoided. We all have ALWAYS totally agreed: OUR good works are good.... and essential.... and associated with our faith. The disagreement has NEVER, not ever, not once, been about that: the issue your denomination split Western Christianity over is whether we are justified by JESUS' works or by our own, or who is the Savior? Do we gain life, faith and the Holy Spirit because of OUR works or CHRISTS' works? Is justification (narrow) a gift from God or a reward for what each self earns for each self? The issue, your denomination stressed, is JUSTIFICATION, not - repeat NOT - Sanctification (what faith does.... what a Christian is called and empowered and directed to do).


And again, you are continuing your absurd point: that is two things are associated (even inseparable) ERGO they MUST have the same function (in this case, justification). It's a silly, absurd, assumption that we hear from some Catholics all the time. NO ONE DENIES James' sound point: but it does NOT mean ergo we are justified by OUR works (making Jesus a sick joke and the Gospel wrong). My new Subaru has both an engine and brakes. You can't get a Subaru Forester without BOTH an engine and brakes. But it is just silly to dogmatically insist that it's ergo the brakes that propel the car. That doesn't mean both are not essential, it only means they don't have the same function or role. Catholics like to imply that because OUR works are associated with faith, ergo our works have a role in our justification. It's an absurd, silly argument we don't hear from Catholic theologians or pastors but certainly from Catholic laity and at Catholic websites.


But we've been over this, many times. In many threads.





.
 

NewCreation435

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I think this just highlights how true, saving faith will result in works. If a person says he has faith then there will be proof of that through actions.
 

MoreCoffee

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I think this just highlights how true, saving faith will result in works. If a person says he has faith then there will be proof of that through actions.

"Real faith" is like the "No true Scotsman" thing. Obviously if a person contends that "faith alone" saves then they need to invent "true faith" and its opposite "false faith" to maintain their doctrine. Saint James doesn't say anything about "true faith" or "false faith" he just teaches about faith and how it is unable to save anybody when it is without good works.
 

NewCreation435

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"Real faith" is like the "No true Scotsman" thing. Obviously if a person contends that "faith alone" saves then they need to invent "true faith" and its opposite "false faith" to maintain their doctrine. Saint James doesn't say anything about "true faith" or "false faith" he just teaches about faith and how it is unable to save anybody when it is without good works.

Yes, I understand
 

Albion

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James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Yes. Of course. The verse you quoted makes that more than clear.

Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.

Not so. The verse you started with, James 2:14, flatly states, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?

If a man claims to have faith, but does not have faith, it is pretty obvious that he will not be saved...by faith. Not only does the statement refer to false claims of faith, but it also implies that if the man truly had faith, it would save him. If not, James would not be making it the focus of his epistle.
 

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If a man claims to have faith, but does not have faith, it is pretty obvious that he will not be saved...by faith. Not only does the statement refer to false claims of faith, but it also implies that if the man truly had faith, it would save him. If not, James would not be making it the focus of his epistle.


Yup.



.
 

atpollard

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James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to show against the disciple of Simon Magus, the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works.

[James 2:14-17, 26 NLT] 14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don't show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, "Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well"--but then you don't give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? 17 So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. ... 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

Could you explain how a “true faith without good works” can also be a “dead and useless” faith?
I do not think you have correctly quoted the message from James.
 

atpollard

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[John 3:13-15 NLT] 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

[John 3:16-17 NLT] 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

[John 3:18-21 NLT] 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

[John 3:31-36 NLT] 31 "He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else. 32 He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but how few believe what he tells them! 33 Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true. 34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."

Is God trying to tell us something?
I sense a pattern, but can’t quite put my finger on it. :ewink:
 

MoreCoffee

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[James 2:14-17, 26 NLT] 14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don't show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, "Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well"--but then you don't give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? 17 So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. ... 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

Could you explain how a “true faith without good works” can also be a “dead and useless” faith?
I do not think you have correctly quoted the message from James.

The passage reads thus:
James 2:14 DRB What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?​
In the KJV it says:
James 2:14 KJV What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?​
The commentator wrote:
Shall faith be able to save him? He now comes to one of the chief points of this epistle, to shew against the disciple of Simon , the magician, that faith alone will not save any one. We may take notice in the first place, that St. James in this very verse, supposes that a man may have faith, a true faith without good works. This also follows from ver. 19. where he says: Thou believest that there is one God: thou dost well. And the same is evident by the words John 12:42. where it is said, that many of the chief men also believed in him, (Christ)....but did not confess it, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. Now that faith alone is not sufficient to save a man, St. James declares by this example: If any one say to the poor and naked, go in peace, be you warmed and filled, and give them nothing, what shall it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, &c. i.e. such a faith, though it be not lost and destroyed, yet it remains in a soul that is spiritually dead, when it is not accompanied with charity and grace, which is the life of the soul, and without which faith can never bring us to eternal life. In this sense is to be understood the 20th and 26th verses of this chapter, when faith is again said to be dead without good works. This is also the doctrine of St. Paul, when he tells us that a saving faith is a faith that worketh by charity, Galatians 5:6. When he says, that although faith were strong enough to remove mountains, a man is nothing without charity. (1 Corinthians 13:2.) When he teacheth us again, that not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [Romans 2:13.] St. John teacheth the same (1 John 3:14.) He that loveth not, remaineth in death. But of this elsewhere. (Witham)

--- Grotius in this place makes a very candid and remarkable profession of his faith, very different from that of his associates in the pretended reformation, called Solifideans [who pretend one is justified by faith alone]: "There are some who say, 'My works indeed are not as they ought to be,' but my faith is firm, my salvation is therefore out of danger. This opinion, which has sprung up in this our unhappy age, and recommends itself under the name of reformed doctrine, ought to be opposed by every lover of piety, and all who wish well to their neighbour's salvation....no faith has ever availed any man, unless it were accompanied by such works as he had time and opportunity to perform." His words are: "Opera quidem mea non recta sunt, sed fides recta est, ac propterea de salute non peri****or....Renata est hoc infelici sæculo ea sententia et quidem sub nomine repurgatæ doctrinæ, cui omnes qui pietatem et salutem proximi amant, se debent opponere....cœterum nulla cuiquam fides profuit, sine tali opere, quale tempus permittebat," &c. In vain do we glory in our faith, unless our lives and works bear testimony of the same. Faith without charity is dead, and charity cannot exist without good works. He who bears the fruits of Christian piety, shews that he has the root, which is faith what the soul is to the body. See the remainder of this chapter.​
James makes no distinction between "true faith" and "false faith" even though the commentator does. For James it is all faith. Some faith works and it is blessed by God and some does not and it is cursed. Even demons believe and tremble in fear knowing their end.
 

MoreCoffee

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[John 3:13-15 NLT] 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

[John 3:16-17 NLT] 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

[John 3:18-21 NLT] 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

[John 3:31-36 NLT] 31 "He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else. 32 He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but how few believe what he tells them! 33 Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true. 34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn't obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God's angry judgment."

Is God trying to tell us something?
I sense a pattern, but can’t quite put my finger on it. :ewink:

Yes, the pattern you're noticing but not quite seeing clearly is that belief and faith are the same word in Greek. Belief without good works is dead. Faith without good works is dead. Both faith and belief, being the same thing in holy scriptures, are dead without good works. It is the good works that are the spirit/life that makes the believer alive in Christ.
 

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Diagramming Greek sentences is fun:

su pisteueiv
You are believing...

oti o yeov eiv estin
that the God One IS...

kalwv poieiv
Well are you doing...

kai ta daimonia
And also the demons

pisteuousin
are believing

kai frissousin
and also trembling...

A slightly unfair summary translation is:
You and the demons are DOING well...
In BELIEVING that God is One...
The demons are also trembling...


The sentence says that because you are believing, you are DOING well...
And not only you, but the demons too are DOING WELL...
Because they are not only BELIEVING...
But unlike you...
They are TREMBLING...

Yet you and they both are BELIEVING and DOING the SAME THING...
eg Believing without doing the works of belief/faith...

Yet the affirmation here is that to believe that God IS One is itself a WORK, a DOing...
"You ARE DOING well..." poieiv Strong's Number 4160...
So that by faith alone without doing the works of faith...
We have not advanced beyond the faith of demons...
Our faith without works is thereby a demonic faith...
Wherein the demons can only tremble, and they do tremble...
But man has another choice to make...
Man can DO the works of the Faith of Christ...
The decision to do them is man's, not Christ's...
And the Salvation of man hangs in the balance...


Arsenios
 
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atpollard

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Perhaps you might enjoy diagraming these Greek sentences:

ινα πας ο πιστευων εν αυτω εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ’ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ’ η οργη του θεου μενει επ’ αυτον
 

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Remember the Bible says Faith is to walk by Faith and not by sight. People like Jesus that is the Savior and Lord that are in your heart. Not seen but you know He is there to watch over and be with us.
 

MoreCoffee

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A man is not justified by faith alone.
 

MennoSota

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Perhaps you might enjoy diagraming these Greek sentences:

ινα πας ο πιστευων εν αυτω εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ’ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ’ η οργη του θεου μενει επ’ αυτον
Got out my Google Translate. It makes me laugh. [emoji16]
all the believing in him shall live forever

so the god has loved the world so that the only begotten son has given him who believes in him, but has not lived forever

the believer in him is judged, and the unbeliever is already honored that he has not believed in the name of the only son of God

the believer in the Son has been alive for ever, and the unfaithful of life is endured alive, but the wrath of the god remains on him
 

atpollard

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Got out my Google Translate. It makes me laugh. [emoji16]

I use that too.
The sentences are John 3:15, 16, 18, 36 from the MGNT version of the Bible.
 
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atpollard

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MoreCoffee

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No matter how many places it says otherwise in scripture. ;)

Where in holy scripture is it ever said that a man is saved by faith alone?
 

atpollard

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It is the good works that are the spirit/life that makes the believer alive in Christ.
I agree that there is a correlation between good works and a living faith and being alive in Christ, and I believe that I could defend the existence of a relationship from scripture. However, your statement goes far beyond any simple relationship (those with a living faith do good works) and claim a direct cause-effect relationship (one does good works to get a living faith).

Can you offer scripture to support your position?
I do not think the Apostles state what you claim.
 
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