Salvation - Part 2

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psalms 91

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Big difference between being ashamed and knowing when to let it alone. Posting the same stuff over and over does nothing to change someone and prevents others from even reading let alone posting so no not ashamed at all just stating truth.
 

Josiah

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The Gospel doesn't change....

When Christians stop proclaiming the Gospel.... when Christians are silent.... the enemy wins.

I will stop proclaiming Christ when Christ takes me Home. If others are "worn out" and chose to become silent and still, well... that's their choice. But I think Jesus had some things to say about that.
 

psalms 91

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I think He would have something to say about continual repitition as well especially when it keeps people silent and offers nothing further to the debate. If I read right He not ojly talked it but also demonstrated it as well. It is in the demonstration that many come to know Jesus not in repitition that just turns people away. I dont believe He repeated many things but of course that was Him and not us however we should learn from His example
 

MennoSota

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I think He would have something to say about continual repitition as well especially when it keeps people silent and offers nothing further to the debate. If I read right He not ojly talked it but also demonstrated it as well. It is in the demonstration that many come to know Jesus not in repitition that just turns people away. I dont believe He repeated many things but of course that was Him and not us however we should learn from His example
God is gonna save those He has chosen. May God graciously give us the words and life that points toward Jesus.

John 6:35-40

Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.*36*But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me.37*However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.38*For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will.*39*And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.*40*For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life.
 

Arsenios

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By being like the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance did you read the paragraph?

Yes - I read the paragraph...

I still don't get it -

Perhaps I am too dense...

Being like the Sacrament of Baptism or of Penance makes an action to be one of perfect charity?

We can let it slide...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I will stop proclaiming Christ when Christ takes me Home.
If others are "worn out" and chose to become silent and still, well...
that's their choice.

You proclaim that Christ is the Savior...
You do well...
The demons also proclaimed...
And they tremble...

Better to live Truth than proclaim it incessantly...
"Be still and know that I AM God..."
Your works will be your proclamation...
Your life in Him will bear witness...

The language of the age to come is silence...
We can have an earnest of it in this fallen age...


Arsenios
 

Cassia

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You proclaim that Christ is the Savior...
You do well...
The demons also proclaimed...
And they tremble...

Better to live Truth than proclaim it incessantly...
"Be still and know that I AM God..."
Your works will be your proclamation...
Your life in Him will bear witness...

The language of the age to come is silence...
We can have an earnest of it in this fallen age...


Arsenios
Hi A. Long time no see. Miss having our chats.
 

Josiah

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You proclaim that Christ is the Savior...
You do well...
The demons also proclaimed...
And they tremble...


No.

Demons do NOT proclaim Jesus as the Savior. They may believe that He is but they do not proclaim it..... I find it likely that they do all they can to denounce that. It is NOT the goal of the demons for souls to leave the dominion of the devil and become a child of God, to deprive Hell of souls and better populate heaven. Again, they know who Jesus is but that does NOT mean they preach Jesus is the Savior.



Your works will be your proclamation...

And also our words. Jesus never said, "You are forbidden to teach the Gospel, you are forbidden to speak of Me." Yes, our life is ALSO a proclamation but you are wrong that it eliminates our words.
 

psalms 91

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Words count when deeds back them up
 

Arsenios

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Words count when deeds back them up

Might I add to your thought here?

Words ONLY count when DEEDS back them up...

Without the deeds, we partake of the leaven of the Pharisee...

And become judgemental hypocrites...

Ya gots ta walk y'er talk!

Right ideas mean nothing apart from their enactment...

Hence the praxeological imperative of theological proclamations...

Theological gum-flapping is simply not enough...

Salvation therein flees from our grasp...

All Theology is practical...

Hence the idea that Salvation is the first thing given in order for man to be saved,
THEN there is praxiologically NOTHING a person can DO in order that God should save him...
Yet the Call of the Gospel is unto repentance...
Which culminates in Justification...
Which culminates in Glorification...

Which all seem to want to ignore...


Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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Might I add to your thought here?

Words ONLY count when DEEDS back them up...

Without the deeds, we partake of the leaven of the Pharisee...

And become judgemental hypocrites...

Ya gots ta walk y'er talk!

Right ideas mean nothing apart from their enactment...

Hence the praxeological imperative of theological proclamations...

Theological gum-flapping is simply not enough...

Salvation therein flees from our grasp...

All Theology is practical...
Hence the idea that Salvation is the first thing given in order for man to be saved,
THEN there is praxiologically NOTHING a person can DO in order that God should save him...
Yet the Call of the Gospel is unto repentance...
Which culminates in Justification...
Which culminates in Glorification...

Which all seem to want to ignore...
Not all want to ignore it but some do. Some want to expunge it from holy scripture. That is an impossible to achieve ambition yet it appears to be the ambition of some.

I was reading saint Paul's letter to the Romans today. And I got to wondering how "imputed" (a word found in the NKJV) came to mean what some say it means when in fact imputation is about saying something that is alleged to be true about the one or thing about which it is said.
Romans 4:4 Now, when someone does a work, salary is not given as a favour, but as a debt that is paid. 5 Here, on the contrary, someone who has no deeds to show, but believes in him, who makes sinners righteous before him: such faith is taken into account, and that person is held as righteous. 6 David congratulates, in this way, those who become righteous [imputes righteousness in the NKJV], by the favour of God, and not by their actions:
7 Blessed are those whose sins are forgiven and whose offenses are forgotten; 8 blessed the one, whose sin God does not take into account! [imputed in the NKJV]
Evidently imputation applies to sins, the actual sins that a person does and not sins merely alleged to have been done. So why would imputed mean one thing (merely alleged righteousness but not actual righteousness) in one place and another thing (actual sins that are not merely alleged but real) in a different place.

The translation I quoted above does a better job than the NKJV. It says "those who become righteous, by the favour of God, and not by their actions"

So what does the Greek word mean, the one that is translated "imputes" in the NKJV?
 
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Arsenios

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I was reading saint Paul's letter to the Romans today. And I got to wondering how "imputed" (a word found in the NKJV) came to mean what some say it means when in fact imputation is about saying something that is alleged to be true about the one or thing about which it is said.
Romans 4:4 Now, when someone does a work, salary is not given as a favour, but as a debt that is paid. 5 Here, on the contrary, someone who has no deeds to show, but believes in him, who makes sinners righteous before him: such faith is taken into account, and that person is held as righteous. 6 David congratulates, in this way, those who become righteous [imputes righteousness in the NKJV], by the favour of God, and not by their actions:
7 Blessed are those whose sins are forgiven and whose offenses are forgotten; 8 blessed the one, whose sin God does not take into account! [imputed in the NKJV]

A pastoral letter is not a theological discourse. The Law to which Paul's references pertain is the source of the works which he writes against... He is writing against the Works of the Law of Moses... The word for "impute" is the one that more literally translates as "is accounted" - logizomai, and means it counts or is accounted by God UNTO (eis) Righteousness... So that one's faith does not make one righteous, but the faith and it's works, apart from the works of the Law, is in fact unto righteousness... As is faith itself, apart from the works of the Law... And we know it is God Who rectifies unto righteousness [rectification] those whom He wills...

So he does use works of the Law apart from (choris) fraith, and faith apart from works, but by this, he means not a faith apart from all works whatsoever, but instead means faith apart from the works of the Law... Most of Romans is a critique of the Works of the Law - Whenever in Romans works are mentioned, they refer specifically to works of the Law. They do not refer to the works of the Faith to which works Christ discipled obedience for His followers...

4:4 ou logizetai Now to him working the wage is not being accounted according to Grace, but according to debt

So what does the Greek word mean, the one that is translated "imputes" in the NKJV?

logizetai means "it is being accounted"...

It implies an accumulation of accredation, until God decides to impart His Righteousness...


Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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A pastoral letter is not a theological discourse. The Law to which Paul's references pertain is the source of the works which he writes against... He is writing against the Works of the Law of Moses... The word for "impute" is the one that more literally translates as "is accounted" - logizomai, and means it counts or is accounted by God UNTO (eis) Righteousness... So that one's faith does not make one righteous, but the faith and it's works, apart from the works of the Law, is in fact unto righteousness... As is faith itself, apart from the works of the Law... And we know it is God Who rectifies unto righteousness [rectification] those whom He wills...

So he does use works of the Law apart from (choris) fraith, and faith apart from works, but by this, he means not a faith apart from all works whatsoever, but instead means faith apart from the works of the Law... Most of Romans is a critique of the Works of the Law - Whenever in Romans works are mentioned, they refer specifically to works of the Law. They do not refer to the works of the Faith to which works Christ discipled obedience for His followers...

4:4 ou logizetai Now to him working the wage is not being accounted according to Grace, but according to debt



logizetai means "it is being accounted"...

It implies an accumulation of accredation, until God decides to impart His Righteousness...


Arsenios

Thank you brother Arsenios. Would you tell me about "faith" in Greek? Is it a noun, a verb, or a word that can be either and does it mean. for example, believe?
 

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Would you tell me about "faith" in Greek?
Is it a noun, a verb, or a word that can be either and does it mean. for example, believe?

The Greek noun is pistis, and it has the -pist- root, that can be easily made into a verb...

It is closely related to our English word epistemology, that nefarious branch of philosophy so dear to the unfaithful!

A condensation of two Greek terms: EPI + hISTEMI - EPI of course means upon, and hISTEMI means stand(ing) - Drop the E of EPI and conflate the hISTemi as IST and you get PIST, the root of PISTIS... So that the central and essential meaning is inseparable from the action of STANDING... And this means action, because one's stance enables one to act in accord with the manner of one's standing. The dead are not standing - They are laying down... Hence the Orthodox tend to pray standing with their heads bowed and their necks inclined, and in this manner are helped to "remember that we are dust"... Yet standing dust...

And more generally, PISTIS is that upon which we stand... It requires virtue to stand - It is so easy to lay down and rest, and we are weak in this fallen condition in which we struggle to attain standing before God in his Ways... And yet, when God in His Mercy gives us His Strength, how easy it is for us to stand and walk in His Ways! And when he draws back, how onerous is our lot and how little we can do and how hard it is even to lift a finger...

And yet our effort to lift that finger is more beneficial to our Salvation than all the Grace we had before in which we walked so effortlessly, because the struggle to stand builds the virtue of standing, and our stature all the more increases before God as we struggle to embrace the cross and follow Christ...

The early Christians were not even called Christians until Antioch became Christianized by Paul... They were called the People of the Way, and that Way was a manner of life, THE manner of Life discipled by the Disciples-now-Apostles of Christ... They came to be in Him cleansed of the defilement of flesh that being born into the rulership of death on earth had engendered in them... This is one reason I always try to show how it is that the Faith of Christ is a Way of living, and not mere belief that something is true because it has been logically proven - eg Epistemically established... And the understanding of that Way of Life is attained IN THE WALKING therein... It becomes KNOWN to the faithful in the DOING of the Faith that is DISCIPLED by those who are WALKING the talk that the words of the Gospel proclaim...

Faith is the taking of a stand upon which one will not depart of betray the stand upon which one is standing...

My Brother used to joke: "Everyone has to believe in something: So I believe I will have another beer!"

So the Faith has beliefs and teachings, but is itself attained ONLY in the DOING of the Faith...

And within this doing - eg THROUGH this practice OF the Faith discipled BY the Ekklesia, the ground and the pillar of the Faith, we are therein Justified and Glorified BY God... And this according to our struggle to overcome demonic powers and principalities first in our own souls, and then doing so as a help, as alms, in the souls of others...

This is the meaning of being saved by Grace through Faith...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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The Greek noun is pistis, and it has the -pist- root, that can be easily made into a verb...

It is closely related to our English word epistemology, that nefarious branch of philosophy so dear to the unfaithful!

A condensation of two Greek terms: EPI + hISTEMI - EPI of course means upon, and hISTEMI means stand(ing) - Drop the E of EPI and conflate the hISTemi as IST and you get PIST, the root of PISTIS... So that the central and essential meaning is inseparable from the action of STANDING... And this means action, because one's stance enables one to act in accord with the manner of one's standing. The dead are not standing - They are laying down... Hence the Orthodox tend to pray standing with their heads bowed and their necks inclined, and in this manner are helped to "remember that we are dust"... Yet standing dust...

And more generally, PISTIS is that upon which we stand... It requires virtue to stand - It is so easy to lay down and rest, and we are weak in this fallen condition in which we struggle to attain standing before God in his Ways... And yet, when God in His Mercy gives us His Strength, how easy it is for us to stand and walk in His Ways! And when he draws back, how onerous is our lot and how little we can do and how hard it is even to lift a finger...

And yet our effort to lift that finger is more beneficial to our Salvation than all the Grace we had before in which we walked so effortlessly, because the struggle to stand builds the virtue of standing, and our stature all the more increases before God as we struggle to embrace the cross and follow Christ...

The early Christians were not even called Christians until Antioch became Christianized by Paul... They were called the People of the Way, and that Way was a manner of life, THE manner of Life discipled by the Disciples-now-Apostles of Christ... They came to be in Him cleansed of the defilement of flesh that being born into the rulership of death on earth had engendered in them... This is one reason I always try to show how it is that the Faith of Christ is a Way of living, and not mere belief that something is true because it has been logically proven - eg Epistemically established... And the understanding of that Way of Life is attained IN THE WALKING therein... It becomes KNOWN to the faithful in the DOING of the Faith that is DISCIPLED by those who are WALKING the talk that the words of the Gospel proclaim...

Faith is the taking of a stand upon which one will not depart of betray the stand upon which one is standing...

My Brother used to joke: "Everyone has to believe in something: So I believe I will have another beer!"

So the Faith has beliefs and teachings, but is itself attained ONLY in the DOING of the Faith...

And within this doing - eg THROUGH this practice OF the Faith discipled BY the Ekklesia, the ground and the pillar of the Faith, we are therein Justified and Glorified BY God... And this according to our struggle to overcome demonic powers and principalities first in our own souls, and then doing so as a help, as alms, in the souls of others...

This is the meaning of being saved by Grace through Faith...


Arsenios
Your salvation proposal is not by grace, Arsenios. Therein lies our disagreement.
 

Arsenios

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Your salvation proposal is not by grace, Arsenios. Therein lies our disagreement.

I know you think so, so I will answer you directly...
Salvation is union with Christ in the Holy Spirit...
There is not one single solitary thing we can do that can cause that to happen at all...
It is Pure Grace...
Scripture calls it a Gift because it CANNOT be earned ever...
Repentance is but our willingness to receive this Grace from God...
Without that willingness, there is no union...
Without repentance, God will not conjoin himself with us...

As an aside, I have personally witnessed an unrepentant person experience an encounter with God...
He fought it off valiantly and eventually pretty successfully...
He was complaining about feelings of universal Love...
"This is not me! I don't know what is wrong with me just now..."
It was kind of funny, actually...
He was a fairly nasty sociopath who had been stalking some of the women in our group on line to their homes, and we all agreed to pray for him one night, and the next day he was having some serious God "problems" impinging into his usual mental processes...

I lost track of him, so I don't know how he is doing these days... I still pray for him when i think of him... His life did change somewhat, but not fundamentally...

Arsenios
 

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Arsenios, your words prove you do not preach salvation by grace. You state:
Repentance is but our willingness to receive this Grace from God...

Without that willingness, there is no union...

Without repentance, God will not conjoin himself with us...
In so preaching, you eliminate and deny grace. You want salvation to be God, plus me...instead of God, alone. When you add, plus me, you remove grace from salvation.
 

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Arsenios -
You want salvation to be God, plus me...instead of God, alone...

Indeed so, for the very good reason that God alone does not need Salvation...

And a Covenant is a relationship between two parties...
Each party provides what is appropriate to it...


Arsenios
 

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Indeed so, for the very good reason that God alone does not need Salvation...

And a Covenant is a relationship between two parties...
Each party provides what is appropriate to it...


Arsenios

God the Father represents the Godhead and Jesus the Son is our representative in the covenant. We are covered under Christ.
 
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