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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Salvation - Part 2

    1. #1
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Salvation

      Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

      Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

      This is not intended as a second chapter of the Justification thread.

      This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here. by MoreCoffee Titled Salvation
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #2
      Support's Avatar
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      This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here.

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      When I've talk with Pentecostal Christians they've told me that there's a need for a second baptism which they call either the baptism with the Spirit or baptism in the Spirit. The passage they reference is
      (I Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. KJV
      which in the KJV says "by one Spirit" so the implication is that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the baptism, in their theology.

      It's an interesting perspective.

      I do not share it.

      It is not what the Catholic Church teaches. One of my Catholic bibles translates the verse this way
      (I Corinthians 12:13) And indeed, in one Spirit, we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether servant or free. And we all drank in the one Spirit.
      which seems much more in accord with the rest of the teaching of holy scripture where we are taught that Jesus Christ will baptise with fire and the Holy Spirit.
      (Luke 3:16) John answered them all, saying, I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
      Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

      kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

      Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

      I imagine MennoSota's post is not what the Orthodox Church teaches.
      Gee, do ya think??

      But maybe it is what MennoSota teaches?
      I love your optimism!

      And I love Menno!

      But he is no twistable pretzel...

      That man has some SAND in his craw! :)


      Arsenios

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

      kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

      Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.
      Gee, do ya think??
      I was confident that Orthodox Christians did not teach what MennoSota says about two baptisms but I wanted to let somebody who is from an Orthodox church say so.
      I love your optimism!

      And I love Menno!

      But he is no twistable pretzel...

      That man has some SAND in his craw!


      Arsenios
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I was confident that Orthodox Christians did not teach what MennoSota says about two baptisms but I wanted to let somebody who is from an Orthodox church say so.
      Aaaaahhhhh...

      Of Course!!!

      Silly me!

      What could I have been thinking??

      Very kind of you to be so generous...

      Of course it is!

      Very kind, very kind...

      You SLY dog you!!


      Arsenios

    6. #6
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      I believe there is ONE baptism because that's what the Bible specifically says. BTW, the ancient Creed (that Calvinists CLAIM they accept) says that, too.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    7. #7
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Aaaaahhhhh...

      Of Course!!!

      Silly me!

      What could I have been thinking??

      Very kind of you to be so generous...

      Of course it is!

      Very kind, very kind...

      You SLY dog you!!


      Arsenios
      The holy scriptures urge Christians to be kind one to another, brother Arsenios
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    8. #8
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

      kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

      Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.



      Gee, do ya think??



      I love your optimism!

      And I love Menno!

      But he is no twistable pretzel...

      That man has some SAND in his craw!


      Arsenios
      What I don't see is any water in that baptism, Arsenios.
      The one body into which we have been baptized is Christ. No water required. Just the Spirit baptizing (immersing) us into Christ.
      Thanks Arsenios, you make my point so very clear.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      What I don't see is any water in that baptism, Arsenios.
      The one body into which we have been baptized is Christ. No water required. Just the Spirit baptizing (immersing) us into Christ.
      Thanks Arsenios, you make my point so very clear.
      It does not say that the Holy Spirit baptizes...

      Water was not the point there, but Who Baptizes IS...

      And it is NOT the Holy Spirit DOING the Baptizing...

      So did Christ command His Apostles to baptize all the nations???

      Arsenios

    10. #10
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      It does not say that the Holy Spirit baptizes...

      Water was not the point there, but Who Baptizes IS...

      And it is NOT the Holy Spirit DOING the Baptizing...

      So did Christ command His Apostles to baptize all the nations???

      Arsenios
      For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

      God baptizes us into Christ. It's right there, Arsenios. With your own translation, you make my point. No water used.
      Thanks Arsenios.

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