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  • Page 38 of 55 FirstFirst ... 28363738394048 ... LastLast
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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Salvation - Part 2

    1. #371
      Albion's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Sinners are not dead persons. They breathe, walk, talk, and do all sorts of things. Some repent. Pray God that more will repent.
      Spiritually dead.

      Get it?

      And no, I am not going to explain THIS one in three or four posts LOL

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    3. #372
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios

      And it is MAN whom God desires to willingly receive His Gifts...
      The problem with this is that no dead person is so willing. Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 8:7-8, John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 6:44, Romans 3:10-11 and so many more. Read them. Believe them.


      .

      You seem to think we are corpses...

      .

      Spiritually, yes those who are lifeless are in a sense spiritual corpses. But I simply noted that your whole argument if founded on something the Bible clearly and often says is not the case.

      Read the following:

      Romans 9:16

      John 1:13

      Ephesians 2:1

      Ephesians 2:8-9

      1 Corinthians 2:14

      1 Corinthians 12:3

      Romans 8:7-8

      John 6:44

      Romans 3:10-11



      "Those who see themselves with little sin will have a little Savior" - Martin Luther.



      - Josiah



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 11-08-2018 at 02:46 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    5. #373
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      The simple fact is that there are stages in Salvation by God...
      Arsenios
      Lets be straightforward. That is a denominational POV.

      Let us not talk as though "everyone knows...."

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    7. #374
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Spiritually dead.
      Perhaps more is read into "dead in trespasses and sins" than is really there. Dead in sin is used in holy scripture a number of times. It is not clear that the author(s) intend the phrase to mean "totally incapable of anything appertaining goodness and God". That is a denominational point of view. Phrases like "dead to the world" do not mean insensate towards the world. The evident intent is "uninterested in following the world". "Dead in sin" may have a similar intended meaning;uninterested in the things of God because sin occupies one's interests. "worldly" has a meaning like that.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    8. #375
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      That's better.

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    10. #376
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Sinners are not dead persons. They breathe, walk, talk, and do all sorts of things. Some repent. Pray God that more will repent.
      How do you get that from "We were DEAD in our sins?"

      Where do you get that from what God says:


      Romans 9:16

      John 1:13

      Ephesians 2:1

      Ephesians 2:8-9

      1 Corinthians 2:14

      1 Corinthians 12:3

      Romans 8:7-8

      John 6:44

      Romans 3:10-11


      How can everything hinge and start with a fallen, dead man's WILL when God said "It does not depend on the will of man?"

      How can everything hinge and start with a fallen, dead man - void of the Holy Spirit - FIRST discerning the things of God, including His wisdom, His will, His righteousness... and how that dead person violated all that, when God said, "he CANNOT discern the things of God, they are foolishness to him?"


      ONE of the many problems with the soteriology you and our EOC friend are promoting (for entirely different reasons) if you put mans' WILL and WORKS as first.... the very thing that means justification comes.... something one does WITHOUT the Holy Spirit (because justification hasn't come yet), without spiritual life (because justification hasn't come yet).... the dead, unregenerate, lifeless man void of God or the Holy Spirit or spiritual life... WILLS it (thus it all depends, it's all founded on unregenrate mans WILL) and because he discerns Spiritual Truth (a LOT of it) and because he performs a good work (repentance). As I've noted, this violates a LOT of Scriptures that you've simply chosen to ignore. Including the one that says we are DEAD in our sins.... fallen man CANNOT discern spiritual matters.... and justification is NOT (it explicitely states) because of the will or deeds of man.... NOT.... it doesn't say "BECAUSE of the will and deeds of man." What you keep shouting - in order to denouce that Jesus is the Savior - is a clear, direct, undeniable contradiction of Scripture. And it undermines the point of Christianity: All NEED to be SAVED (not given a pep talk, not a vitimin pill, not a helping hand) and that God has provided the SAVIOR in Jesus Christ (not a possibility maker, not just a helper, not just an inspirational teacher but SAVIOR). You even violate the Creed you nonetheless profess every Sunday, that GOD is the GIVER of life - not that all already have life so there's nothing for the Holy Spirit to give.... not that the Holy Spirit simply OFFERS it... but that the Holy Spirit GIVES it. No one steals it by willing it or doing a certain work - the Bible over and over says it's NOT, N.O.T., not because of our will or works but by God's MERCY.... God GIVES it. "Whom the Father will GIVE you" Jesus said..



      Now, to your silly point.... yes, those who are spiritually dead, void of the Holy Spirit, they CAN walk and talk. What a silly point you make! But walking and talking are not functions of spiritual life, they are functions of physical life. Jesus said we must be born AGAIN... not just from flesh (that leads to talking and walking) but from the Spirit (that leads to faith and a life lived from such).




      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 11-08-2018 at 03:54 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    11. #377
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Lets be straightforward. That is a denominational POV.

      Let us not talk as though "everyone knows...."
      It is Paul's point:

      Rom_8:30
      Moreover whom he did foreordain,
      them he also called:
      and whom he called,
      them he also justified:
      and whom he justified,
      them he also glorified.


      The beginning is being Called (to repentance)...
      The middle is being Justified...
      The end is being Glorified...

      Arsenios

    12. #378
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      It is Paul's point:

      Rom_8:30
      Moreover whom he did foreordain,
      them he also called:
      and whom he called,
      them he also justified:
      and whom he justified,
      them he also glorified.


      The beginning is being Called (to repentance)...
      The middle is being Justified...
      The end is being Glorified...

      Arsenios
      Paul is quoted, but what follows is still a denominational interpretation of the passage.. Bible-oriented denominations would take something from it that is quite different from what you did.

      This is not an insult, but just the fact of the matter.

    13. #379
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      How can everything hinge and start with a fallen, dead man's WILL
      when God said "It does not depend on the will of man?"
      Man can desire purity of heart, as Paul reported:

      Rom_7:19
      For the good that I would
      I do not:
      but the evil which I would not,
      that I do.


      So to desire what is good is within the power of fallen man...
      Yet to ATTAIN that good is not...

      "Of God the Gift..."

      Hence; "Ask and ye shall receive..."

      All better now?


      Arsenios

    14. #380
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Paul is quoted, but what follows is still a denominational interpretation of the passage.. Bible-oriented denominations would take something from it that is quite different from what you did.

      This is not an insult, but just the fact of the matter.
      Much more can be taken from this passage...

      But the three stages are hard to avoid...


      Arsenios

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