Jesus Christ, died for all

MennoSota

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Does it not seem possible to you that "for many" is inclusive rather than exclusive. The Lord did not say "for a few" which is what "limited" tends to imply. He said "for many" implying many will be forgiven because his blood of the new covenant is poured out for them. But if the phrase makes you feel confident about limited atonement, even though it is not making an argument for "limited atonement", then how do you cope with passages that deliberately and directly state that Christ died for the sins of the whole world? Surely the phrase "for the sins of the whole world" is less obscure in its extent than "for many".
1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Over the course of the past 2000 years would you say "many" have been given faith? I would. There is no place where we see "all" person's being given faith.
The whole world is being evangelized. There will be believers from every tribe and tongue. "All" the world will be represented in heaven.
I'm sorry you cannot grasp this truth, MC. Instead you are a massive contradiction of thought, which is the exact opposite of scripture.
 

Andrew

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Does it not seem possible to you that "for many" is inclusive rather than exclusive. The Lord did not say "for a few" which is what "limited" tends to imply. He said "for many" implying many will be forgiven because his blood of the new covenant is poured out for them. But if the phrase makes you feel confident about limited atonement, even though it is not making an argument for "limited atonement", then how do you cope with passages that deliberately and directly state that Christ died for the sins of the whole world? Surely the phrase "for the sins of the whole world" is less obscure in its extent than "for many".
1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

"Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples."
John 11:47-54


John is speaking to the Jews in 1 John, saying not for 'only' the nation of Israel but also the gentile nation "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation" you see the Jews had a problem with a Christ that can atone for any gentile... To God however, his sheep are scattered abroad and equal one flock, his flock is that of both Jew and Gentile...

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
1 John 4:10
 
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MoreCoffee

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John is speaking to the Jews in 1 John

First John is not "speaking to the Jews". He's writing to "his little children".
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
(1 John 2:1-6)​
If you're going to just invent things at least take the time to read the passage.
 

Andrew

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First John is not "speaking to the Jews". He's writing to "his little children".
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
(1 John 2:1-6)​
If you're going to just invent things at least take the time to read the passage.
I was relating it to the book of John, he is clearly talking about the Jews and the Gentiles and how there is no great constriction between the two of them, they all equal one flock, Gods flock, for whom Christ atonement is fulfilled.

High Priest in John...
"Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad"
 
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MoreCoffee

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I was relating it to the book of John

Oh, well that is an irrelevance. First John is a pastoral letter not a gospel like the Gospel according to saint John.
 

Albion

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MennoSota

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First John is not "speaking to the Jews". He's writing to "his little children".
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
(1 John 2:1-6)​
If you're going to just invent things at least take the time to read the passage.
MC, your verse has been explained. You are merely looking for any sentence that will weaken the atonement of Christ.
Since Jesus atoning sacrifice makes a person holy and righteous before God, the concept of unlimited atonement is synonymous with universal atonement. If Jesus universally atoned for all humanities sin, then all humanity is holy and righteous before God.
So, do you believe the atonement is effective or do you say that Jesus atoning sacrifice was only potentially effective?
 

Josiah

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Over the course of the past 2000 years would you say "many" have been given faith? There is no place where we see "all" person's being given faith.


TRY to stay on topic, my friend. The issue is not whether God gives faith to all but whether Christ died for all.


Did Christ die for all? It's exactly what the Bible says....



1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...




.
 
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Lamb

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TRY to stay on topic, my friend. The issue is not whether God gives faith to all but whether Christ died for all.


Did Christ die for all? It's exactly what the Bible says....



1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...




.

I've seen Menno's post where he asked if Jesus died for all then why is it ineffective for all? That is where by grace through faith comes in. We aren't told if God gives ALL faith in order to believe that their sins are forgiven. But we are told in the scriptures that there are men who REJECT after hearing the Gospel. That doesn't mean that God was ineffective and instead reveals that man is to blame for his own damnation.
 

Josiah

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I've seen Menno's post where he asked if Jesus died for all then why is it ineffective for all? That is where by grace through faith comes in. We aren't told if God gives ALL faith in order to believe that their sins are forgiven. But we are told in the scriptures that there are men who REJECT after hearing the Gospel. That doesn't mean that God was ineffective and instead reveals that man is to blame for his own damnation.


Yes. A critical factor in all of ULIP is the elimination of faith. It flows from the abandonment of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. So, without God's universal grace and Christ's dead for all and having eliminated the divine gift of faith, it all boils down to God simply sames some and damns most (Universalism flows from this for those Calvinists who realized Limited Atonement is wrong; universalists continuing the same elimination of faith and rejection of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide).

You're right, Lamm. Why aren't all saved? Not all have faith. The biblical answer is simple.... unless faith is eliminated. Then you need to find another answer.


Yes, God elects some to have faith. And this is why election has always been associated with FAITH.... those who have FAITH.... but when these latter-day radical Calvinists eliminated faith, it gets another subject.




.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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...(T)he concept of unlimited atonement is synonymous with universal atonement. If Jesus universally atoned for all humanities sin, then all humanity is holy and righteous before God.

Have you heard of the false equivalency fallacy? You've perpetuated this in numerous threads and thrown "UNIVERSALIST!" at so many posters it's incredible. Folks saying that the sacrifice of Christ is effectual for all does not equate with universal atonement because not all are/will be saved. This isn't rocket science, but basic Christianity 101.













*And don't dare call me a universalist for saying so...
 

Andrew

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I've seen Menno's post where he asked if Jesus died for all then why is it ineffective for all? That is where by grace through faith comes in. We aren't told if God gives ALL faith in order to believe that their sins are forgiven. But we are told in the scriptures that there are men who REJECT after hearing the Gospel. That doesn't mean that God was ineffective and instead reveals that man is to blame for his own damnation.

All of humanities 'free will' is to reject God as rebellious fallen creatures, naturally we all would reject his Gospel but God chose to send Christ do redeem all of those whom the Father has given him. Every single believer is atoned for, all who have an ear to hear will be called forth and not one is left behind. It is impossible for a believer to choose by his/her own free will to discontinue their belief.. and if God chooses who he wills to be called into his Elect we should accept that he also chose others not to be called into his Elect.
Ephesians 1 speaks boldly on Gods predestined Elect, after reading that chapter I finally understood what everyone meant by predestination of the Elect.. unfortunately this belief has a twin brother made of straw "double predestination", cup half empty or half full? One can be quick to think that because God chose an Elect it's the same as saying he 'caused' others to go to Hell thus God makes people go to hell.
My Pentecostal experience was worse though, I remember leaving church and going to town and I was convinced that everyone I saw, friends and family were going straight to hell because they aren't Pentecostal believers... many churches practice "no salvation out of the church", it's such an abusive term and it's not what it originally meant at all... but as I understand reformed theology now which is very very scriptural, I no longer feel any discomfort because it's all completely up to our Sovereign God who he chooses and not what some church scares you into believing... It also has allowed me to embrace Christ commands to LOVE Everyone! Let God be God and thank God for choosing ALL BELIEVERS for his Elect!
 

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All of humanities 'free will' is to reject God as rebellious fallen creatures, naturally we all would reject his Gospel but God chose to send Christ do redeem all of those whom the Father has given him. Every single believer is atoned for, all who have an ear to hear will be called forth and not one is left behind. It is impossible for a believer to choose by his/her own free will to discontinue their belief.. and if God chooses who he wills to be called into his Elect we should accept that he also chose others not to be called into his Elect.
Ephesians 1 speaks boldly on Gods predestined Elect, after reading that chapter I finally understood what everyone meant by predestination of the Elect was all about... unfortunately this belief has a twin brother made of straw "double predestination", cup half empty or half full? One can be quick to think that because God chose an Elect it's the same as saying he 'caused' others to go to Hell.
My Pentecostal experience was worse though, I remember leaving church and going to town and I was convinced that everyone I saw, friends and family were going straight to hell because they aren't Pentecostal believers... many churches practice "no salvation out of the church", it's such an abusive term and it's not what it originally meant at all... but as I understand reformed theology now which is very very scriptural, I no longer feel any discomfort because it's all completely up to our Sovereign God who he chooses and not what some church scares you into believing... It also has allowed me to embrace Christ commands to LOVE Everyone! Let God be God and thank God for choosing ALL BELIEVERS for his Elect!

The problem can come in when people question if they've been chosen instead of believing that the Savior died for their sins.
 

Andrew

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The problem can come in when people question if they've been chosen instead of believing that the Savior died for their sins.
If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Christ than you are a believer, you are saved, no ifs, ands or buts about it and there is no way of thwarting it or rejecting his Love, you are his forever. All believers go to Heaven, all who believe and look to Christ will be saved, once saved always saved. If you share the word and someone calls you a fool do not look at them as damned! I was once that person, but you nor I know what God has planned in that persons life, they may thank you later on and you may even be surprised when you see the great change God has made in their life... I see it happening to many of my atheist friends all the time. Keep fighting the good fight
 

MennoSota

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I've seen Menno's post where he asked if Jesus died for all then why is it ineffective for all? That is where by grace through faith comes in. We aren't told if God gives ALL faith in order to believe that their sins are forgiven. But we are told in the scriptures that there are men who REJECT after hearing the Gospel. That doesn't mean that God was ineffective and instead reveals that man is to blame for his own damnation.
Lutherans seem to struggle with atonement. They jump to justification by faith and recognize only the elect have faith, therefore only the elect are justified. What they don't grasp (and Luther struggled with this) is that only the elect have atonement. If all the world has been atoned by the blood of Christ Jesus, then God could not justly condemn anyone for their sins. They would be entirely holy in Christ and therefore God would also justify them and give them faith.
But, Christ only atoned for those the Father gave him. God gives the gift of faith to those who have been atoned and therefore the elect are justified.

The responsibility is for the Lutheran to show how God can justly condemn those for whom Jesus has made perfect and holy by his sacrifice.
So, Lutherans, show us how God can condemn those whom Jesus atoned.
 

Josiah

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.
 
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Josiah

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If all the world has been atoned by the blood of Christ Jesus, then God could not justly condemn anyone for their sins.


ONLY in your world where faith is irrelevant, worthless, meaningless; only by your deleting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

As everyone knows, Lutherans do NOT teach that there is justification apart from faith or damnation with faith (yes, Lutherans disagree with extreme Calvinist there).

As you yourself noted, the 'U' in TULIP is that: JESUS DIED ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY JUST FOR A LIMITED FEW. You like to talk about everything else... and of course won't permit even a mention of faith, but you are right, that is the teaching of the 'U.' Now, could you quote the verses that state "Jesus died ONLY for the few" ("ONLY" being the essential word because that IS the dogma).



MennoSota said:
So, Lutherans, show us how God can condemn those whom Jesus atoned


Lutherans don't delete faith; we don't regard faith as irrelevant in justification. We are justified by grace THROUGH FAITH. Yes, the Bible is correct when it says Jesus died for all .... and that is recieved through faith.

Consider Romans 5: 1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, w have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Also see

John 3:16

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24



Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. One teaching, one truth. That's the Protestant teaching; destroyed when Sola Fide is eliminated. Yes, the Bible is correct when it so often says Jesus died for all. No, that does not mean ergo everyone is saved because faith is irrelevant, meaningless and moot. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide are JOINED, inseparable, united, one teaching.





.
 
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MennoSota

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Folks saying that the sacrifice of Christ is effectual for all does not equate with universal atonement because not all are/will be saved.
So prove this.
1) You say Jesus sacrifice is effectual for all.
If it effectively makes all humanity perfect and removes all humanities sins, what would God judge them for? What sin could possibly be greater than Jesus atoning sacrifice?
How can people not be saved if God sees them as entirely made righteous by Jesus atoning sacrifice?

Here's what Lammchen stated in another thread.
The cause of our salvation is NOT our repentance but Jesus' death for our sins.

Please prove your assertion.
 

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So prove this.
1) You say Jesus sacrifice is effectual for all.
If it effectively makes all humanity perfect and removes all humanities sins, what would God judge them for? What sin could possibly be greater than Jesus atoning sacrifice?
How can people not be saved if God sees them as entirely made righteous by Jesus atoning sacrifice?

Here's what Lammchen stated in another thread.


Please prove your assertion.

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Jesus died for all because Adam's sin effected all. Not all benefit though from the cross because men will reject Him. Do you see how Romans puts it together so neatly for you?
 

MennoSota

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Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Jesus died for all because Adam's sin effected all. Not all benefit though from the cross because men will reject Him. Do you see how Romans puts it together so neatly for you?

Lammechen, you are using a universalist argument and then adding a huge BUT to try counteract your own argument.

You are saying that Jesus died for all. You are saying that the atonement removed the sins of ALL humanity. I ask you once again...if that is true, how can God condemn those whom Jesus has made perfect? "There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

But...you add an interesting twist. You claim that Jesus has made everyone holy and perfect, but humans can deny that reality and thus by denying the truth, God condemns them...even though they are, in truth, completely holy and righteous.

In the end, salvation hinges upon the feelings and emotions of the human being at the moment they are brought into God's presence. If they have any doubt in God's atonement and justification....that person will be condemned and thrown into hell!

Let's look at the entire chapter. I will highlight some important things.

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I highlight much here to show you the limited work of Christ in atonement that Paul is clearly teaching. Notice all the times he says we. If, Paul were advocating for universal (unlimited) atonement, Paul would have said "all." But, Paul doesn't. Paul limits his words to those for whom Jesus died.
So, when you see that, you realize that Paul cannot be saying that the universal world (all) are justified and atoned for (as you claim in verse 18). Instead, we must understand that Paul is telling the Romans that the atonement and God's subsequent justification is not limited to the Jews, nor to the Greeks, nor to the Romans, but it is provided to every nation, tribe and tongue. The inclusive nature of the Gospel and its reach is universal, but the reception of the gospel and the effectiveness of the atonement (and subsequent justification) is limited to those whom the Father has given Jesus to be His sheep.
Reading the entire chapter, one cannot escape the truth of limited atonement...that Christ died only for the elect. To twist it any other way is to ignore the whole of the text.
 
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