Jesus Christ, died for all

MoreCoffee · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
No...it doesn't. It is a muddy mess of voluminous puss.

The next part of chapter one says:

II. Ways of Coming to Know God

31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. the soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

7 ⇒ Rom 1:19-20; cf., ⇒ Acts 14:15, ⇒ 17; ⇒ 17:27-28; ⇒ Wis 13:1-9.
8 St. Augustine, Sermo 241, 2: PL 38, 1134,
9 GS 18 # 1; cf. 14 # 2.
10 St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, 2, 3.

MennoSota · Feb 7, 2019

MoreCoffee said:
The next part of chapter one says:

II. Ways of Coming to Know God

31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. the soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

7 ⇒ Rom 1:19-20; cf., ⇒ Acts 14:15, ⇒ 17; ⇒ 17:27-28; ⇒ Wis 13:1-9.
8 St. Augustine, Sermo 241, 2: PL 38, 1134,
9 GS 18 # 1; cf. 14 # 2.
10 St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, 2, 3.

Paste all 2000+ comments that have changed on multiple occasions over time. It will still be massive pile of obfuscation.

Arsenios · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
Go to 2 Timothy for your answer.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Nothing there about Scripture being the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth...

The church of God is the body of Christ, which has nothing to do with denominations.

Exactly - The pre-denominational Church:

"Which is the Church of the Living God,
the Pillar and Ground of the Truth."

1Tim 3:15

There it is, in plain ol' KJV English...

Not Scripture, as you falsely teach...
But the Church, as the Bible says...

Now do you believe it?

Arsenios

MennoSota · Feb 7, 2019

Arsenios said:
Nothing there about Scripture being the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth...

Exactly - The pre-denominational Church:

"Which is the Church of the Living God,
the Pillar and Ground of the Truth."

1Tim 3:15

There it is, in plain ol' KJV English...

Not Scripture, as you falsely teach...
But the Church, as the Bible says...

Now do you believe it?

Arsenios

Arsenios, you twist those sentences in 1 Timothy and ignore 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

MoreCoffee · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
Paste all 2000+ comments that have changed on multiple occasions over time. It will still be massive pile of obfuscation.

I believe that there are 2000+ paragraphs in the 500 or so pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I could, given enough posts and time post all of them for you if you are keen to read them all - it appears that you are unfamiliar with the Catechism given your comments - but I'd rather not post all of them because it would be better reading for you if you downloaded the Catechism for yourself and read it. Or you could buy a printed copy. I prefer the printed copies myself, they are less technological and easier to carry for reading when desired plus they require no electricity.

III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14

11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2: DS 3004 cf. 3026; Vatican Council
II, Dei Verbum 6.
12 Cf. ⇒ Gen 1:27
13 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3875.
14 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005;
DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, I, I.

So far you haven't mentioned anything specific that is "obfuscated" in the Catechism. Is that because your statements are hyperbolic exaggeration coming from unfamiliarity with the contents of the Catechism?

Arsenios · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
Arsenios, you twist those sentences in 1 Timothy and ignore 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

1Timothy tells us that it is the Church of the Living God that is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth...

And 2Timothy tells us that the Bible is useful...

I agree...

Arsenios

MennoSota · Feb 7, 2019

Arsenios said:
1Timothy tells us that it is the Church of the Living God that is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth...

And 2Timothy tells us that the Bible is useful...

I agree...

Arsenios

Wow, what a twisted pretzel you have created. You are declaring that fallible humans are the truth and the very word of God is just "useful." No wonder your theology is so messed up.

MennoSota · Feb 7, 2019

MoreCoffee said:
I believe that there are 2000+ paragraphs in the 500 or so pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I could, given enough posts and time post all of them for you if you are keen to read them all - it appears that you are unfamiliar with the Catechism given your comments - but I'd rather not post all of them because it would be better reading for you if you downloaded the Catechism for yourself and read it. Or you could buy a printed copy. I prefer the printed copies myself, they are less technological and easier to carry for reading when desired plus they require no electricity.

III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14

11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2: DS 3004 cf. 3026; Vatican Council
II, Dei Verbum 6.
12 Cf. ⇒ Gen 1:27
13 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3875.
14 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005;
DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, I, I.

So far you haven't mentioned anything specific that is "obfuscated" in the Catechism. Is that because your statements are hyperbolic exaggeration coming from unfamiliarity with the contents of the Catechism?

You keep quoting the obfuscation. No need but to let people see how convoluted it is in comparison with God's word.

MoreCoffee · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
You keep quoting the obfuscation. No need but to let people see how convoluted it is in comparison with God's word.

It is useful for people to see what The Catechism of the Catholic Church says rather than for them to accept without evidence the derogatory comments you've posted about it. If you have any specific examples where the Catechism is at fault or in need of improvement then present them. If you have none then your comments will continue to appear to be made from ignorance of what the Catechism says.

IV. How Can We Speak about God?

39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.

40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.

41 All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. the manifold perfections of creatures - their truth, their goodness, their beauty all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures" perfections as our starting point, "for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator".15

42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God --"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"-- with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that "between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude";17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18

15 ⇒ Wis 13:5
16 Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, Anaphora.
17 Lateran Council IV: DS 806.
18 St. Thomas Aquinas, SCG 1, 30.

Albion · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
No...it doesn't. It is a muddy mess of voluminous puss.

I'm not sure if it should be called pus, but it is very much what some people might call boob bait.

That is to say, the Catechism is mostly a bunch of gobbledygook that very definitely does not explain the Roman Church's official beliefs, mainly because the ordinary Catholic would be mortified to learn what his church actually does profess if the Catechism were actually to reveal it.

So instead, the laity are given answers that are incomplete, theoretical, and festooned with irrelevant information and pretty language so that they, the readers, will be led to think they actually have something definitive and important when it is nothing but a throw-away publication.

MennoSota · Feb 7, 2019

Albion said:
I'm not sure if it should be called pus, but it is very much what some people might call boob bait.

That is to say, the Catechism is a bunch of gobbledygook that very definitely does not explain the Roman Church's official beliefs, mainly because the ordinary Catholic would be mortified to learn what his church actually does profess if the Catechism were actually to reveal it.

So instead, the laity are given answers that are incomplete, theoretical, and festooned with irrelevant information and pretty language so that they, the readers, will be led to think they actually have something important in their hands when it is nothing but a throw-away publication.

ie... voluminous puss.

MoreCoffee · Feb 7, 2019

MennoSota said:
ie... voluminous puss.

As people read through this thread they will be able, God willing, to see what The Catechism of the Catholic Church says and be freed from reliance on your negative comments unsupported by evidence.

IN BRIEF

44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 # 1: DS 3026),

48 We really can name God, starting from the manifold perfections of his creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery.

49 Without the Creator, the creature vanishes (GS 36). This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know him or who reject him.

MoreCoffee · Feb 8, 2019

After reading the slurs posted by MennoSota and the bait put out by Albion all I want to say is that I much prefer to read the Catechism and associate with its content and spirit than with the language and attitude evident in the posts from the two posters mentioned.

pinacled · Feb 9, 2019

MoreCoffee said:
The Lord, Jesus Christ, died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, his death benefits only those to whom the merit of Christ's passion is communicated.

Your statement bears false witness Against the All Mighty God.

murder is an unforgivable sin

Lamb · Feb 9, 2019

pinacled said:
Your statement bears false witness Against the All Mighty God.

murder is an unforgivable sin

Are you suggesting that Jesus' death couldn't cover the sin of murder?

Andrew · Feb 9, 2019

Lämmchen said:
Are you suggesting that Jesus' death couldn't cover the sin of murder?

Right? Maybe we should wonder about Paul :/
btw Murder is also defined as "hate" in the good book.

Josiah · Feb 9, 2019

pinacled said:
Your statement bears false witness Against the All Mighty God.murder is an unforgivable sin

Lost me....

What does that comment have to do with whether:
1) Jesus died for all or
2) Jesus did not die for all bur rather, instead, for only, exclusively, solely just for some limited few?

That's the sole issue here (and the issue of the "L" of the Reformed denomination tradition)

Could you explain?

.

pinacled · Feb 9, 2019

I'm not suggesting anything
Murder is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who teaches other wise is a liar.

Andrew · Feb 9, 2019

pinacled said:
I'm not suggesting anything
Murder is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who teaches other wise is a liar.

The great blasphemy has to due with witnessing a miracle of God and 'knowing' that is a miracle from God and 'denouncing' it and calling it the work of the devil.
Saul persecuted many Christians and God made him an apostle.. so... 'murder' is not the unforgivable sin imo.
Could you create a thread for us so we could discuss this in an official way?

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2019

I wrote The Lord, Jesus Christ, died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, his death benefits only those to whom the merit of Christ's passion is communicated. and the quote below was a reply to it.

pinacled said:
Your statement bears false witness Against the All Mighty God.

murder is an unforgivable sin

I must admit to being surprised by the size of the text but not so much by the content of it.

Of course some folk feel deeply that Jesus' death was some sort of wicked sham. I guess that may be how pinacled feels?

Jesus Christ, died for all

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God's Lil Lamb

Matt 18:15

simul justus et peccator

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Matt 18:15

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