Why has Open Theism become popular?

MennoSota

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Human freedom, if it truly exists, is a gift from God. A grace given by which free choices could be made. Does it exist?
Free-will does not exist, nor is it ever mentioned in scripture.
Free-will and human choice are not the same thing.
I have shown multiple passages where the choices men made were not allowed to take place. God would not approve of their choice and refused their action. (See Balaam and Jonah for starters.)
Since the presupposition of free-will is wrong, the entire argument of open theism also falls apart.
 

Andrew

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Free-will does not exist, nor is it ever mentioned in scripture.
Free-will and human choice are not the same thing.
I have shown multiple passages where the choices men made were not allowed to take place. God would not approve of their choice and refused their action. (See Balaam and Jonah for starters.)
Since the presupposition of free-will is wrong, the entire argument of open theism also falls apart.
I strongly disagree.
God would never make commandments if there was no such thing as 'free will', God didn't make us robots and all 'human choice' is ultimately 'free will'.
God chose me yes but I could have denied him if I chose to, Revelation speaks of those who "turned their face from the Lord".
God wills that everyone be saved, it is up to each individual to accept his will or at least acknowledged his will as 'complete', this is 'predestination', I just happen to 'know' that he was there for me from the beginning and I accept that, I am not a robot lol.
God commanded Adam and Eve to NOT eat of that Tree, and Adam and Eve did... Why did they do it if they had no free will or human choice?
 

MoreCoffee

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Free-will does not exist, nor is it ever mentioned in scripture.
Free-will and human choice are not the same thing.
I have shown multiple passages where the choices men made were not allowed to take place. God would not approve of their choice and refused their action. (See Balaam and Jonah for starters.)
What you've written is like the explanation of "open theism" that was given by the Anabaptist (see here). It looks like you're saying that humans choose but God overrides their choices by his almighty power. That is open theism. Perhaps you believe open theism without using the name.
Since the presupposition of free-will is wrong, the entire argument of open theism also falls apart.
 
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MennoSota

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I strongly disagree.
God would never make commandments if there was no such thing as 'free will',
Obeying commandments and free-will have nothing in common. Free-will is not about basic choices we make. It is false to try make them one and the same.
God didn't make us robots and all 'human choice' is ultimately 'free will'.
No, you are attempting to merge two different issues.
Since the Bible tells us that no one seeks God, not even one and the Bible also tells us we were chosen before the foundation of the world, there really is no biblical support for humans claiming to choose or reject God's salvation. The fact that humans cannot and will not be able to choose God, does not mean humans cannot select their vacation destination or the lane they drive in on the freeway.
 

MennoSota

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What's you've written is like the explanation of "open theism" that was given by the Anabaptist (see here). It looks like you're saying that humans choose but God overrides their choices by his almighty power. That is open theism. Perhaps you believe open theism without using the name.
The explanation is from Western Kentucky University, a non-religious school. I chose this site precisely because it would be neutral. Besides anabaptists were/are free-will proponents.
My cousins daughter is an open theist, Mennonite pastor.
 

Andrew

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Obeying commandments and free-will have nothing in common. Free-will is not about basic choices we make. It is false to try make them one and the same.

No, you are attempting to merge two different issues.
Since the Bible tells us that no one seeks God, not even one and the Bible also tells us we were chosen before the foundation of the world, there really is no biblical support for humans claiming to choose or reject God's salvation. The fact that humans cannot and will not be able to choose God, does not mean humans cannot select their vacation destination or the lane they drive in on the freeway.
[Edit: I accidently typed 'MC' instead of Menno... those 'm' names you know lol, fixed... This is addressed to Menno]
So God chose Adam and Eve to take the forbidden fruit? Yikes that kind of shook me up just typing that... Menno, God allowed Adam to put a name to everything, he gave him and Eve the right to choose from whatever fruit they wished... good and bad... and his warning has echoed throughout time since the beginning that he has judgment over mans free choice, albeit our choice of wether we are saved or not is ultimately God's choice but we have a pretty clear view of his method of salvation for the entire human race no?
Again, did God choose for Adam and Eve to forsake him by going against his will or was that their choice?
 
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MoreCoffee

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The explanation is from Western Kentucky University, a non-religious school. I chose this site precisely because it would be neutral. Besides anabaptists were/are free-will proponents.
My cousins daughter is an open theist, Mennonite pastor.

Yes, all that is true enough, yet your words in the explanation that you gave is very like open theism. You wrote: "Free-will and human choice are not the same thing. I have shown multiple passages where the choices men made were not allowed to take place. God would not approve of their choice and refused their action. (See Balaam and Jonah for starters.)", what you wrote looks like open theism.
 

MennoSota

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Yes, all that is true enough, yet your words in the explanation that you gave is very like open theism. You wrote: "Free-will and human choice are not the same thing. I have shown multiple passages where the choices men made were not allowed to take place. God would not approve of their choice and refused their action. (See Balaam and Jonah for starters.)", what you wrote looks like open theism.
Take off your rosary covered glasses, MC. [emoji56]
 

Andrew

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I wanted to reiterate that my former post was edited so to not confuse
 

MennoSota

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[Edit: I accidently typed 'MC' instead of Menno... those 'm' names you know lol, fixed... This is addressed to Menno]
So God chose Adam and Eve to take the forbidden fruit? Yikes that kind of shook me up just typing that... Menno, God allowed Adam to put a name to everything, he gave him and Eve the right to choose from whatever fruit they wished... good and bad... and his warning has echoed throughout time since the beginning that he has judgment over mans free choice, albeit our choice of wether we are saved or not is ultimately God's choice but we have a pretty clear view of his method of salvation for the entire human race no?
Again, did God choose for Adam and Eve to forsake him by going against his will or was that their choice?
God ordained that they could. Had God ordained that they could not eat of that fruit, they would not.
God ordains a yes or no to every choice we make. When God wills that a person's heart be hardened that person's heart will be hardened. When God wills that a person be made alive in Christ, that person will be made alive in Christ.
Hoffman, if you willed to brush your teeth, but God willed you to brush your hair...you would brush your hair.
God often gives a yes to our choices, but that does not equate to us having free-will. We are still bound under the ordained will of God.
God said "yes" to Adam’s choice to eat the fruit, because his action was was in the ordained plan of God to reveal His grace to angels and His creation.
God never tells us why he didn't stop Adam and Eve. We only know that God gave a "yes" to the choice.
Does God's willingness to let Adam sin therefore make Adam’s will free of God's Sovereignty?
 

Andrew

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God ordained that they could. Had God ordained that they could not eat of that fruit, they would not.
God ordains a yes or no to every choice we make. When God wills that a person's heart be hardened that person's heart will be hardened. When God wills that a person be made alive in Christ, that person will be made alive in Christ.
Hoffman, if you willed to brush your teeth, but God willed you to brush your hair...you would brush your hair.
God often gives a yes to our choices, but that does not equate to us having free-will. We are still bound under the ordained will of God.
God said "yes" to Adam’s choice to eat the fruit, because his action was was in the ordained plan of God to reveal His grace to angels and His creation.
God never tells us why he didn't stop Adam and Eve. We only know that God gave a "yes" to the choice.
Does God's willingness to let Adam sin therefore make Adam’s will free of God's Sovereignty?
...yes to the 'choice'...
So there is a choice and God respects your choice as long as he alone judges that choice. Because God allowed it and gave them his blessing so to speak, God did not hinder them thus it was up to them to make their move due to there free will.
God however never pre ordained that his creation should fail, but he allowed it so and made an example out of them. Jesus was the only one who did Gods will exactly, but man is naturally a sinner and his free will to sin is his biggest flaw, temptation and all.
 

MennoSota

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...yes to the 'choice'...
So there is a choice and God respects your choice as long as he alone judges that choice. Because God allowed it and gave them his blessing so to speak, God did not hinder them thus it was up to them to make their move due to there free will.
God however never pre ordained that his creation should fail, but he allowed it so and made an example out of them. Jesus was the only one who did Gods will exactly, but man is naturally a sinner and his free will to sin is his biggest flaw, temptation and all.
No one denies human choice. What I deny is human free-will, which necessitates that the human will is above God's will and can therefore change the path of the future so that God becomes reactive to man's will rather than being Sovereign over man's will.
Therefore, since God's will aways supercedes and is authoritive over man's will, man's will is never free. Man's will is ALWAYS held captive under the Sovereign will of God.
What does this mean? It means there is no such thing as free-will.
 

MoreCoffee

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No one denies human choice. What I deny is human free-will, which necessitates that the human will is above God's will and can therefore change the path of the future so that God becomes reactive to man's will rather than being Sovereign over man's will.
Therefore, since God's will aways supercedes and is authoritive over man's will, man's will is never free. Man's will is ALWAYS held captive under the Sovereign will of God.
What does this mean? It means there is no such thing as free-will.

Free choice is a synonym for free will. Choice and will being essentially the same thing in the locus of conversation.
 

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Free choice is a synonym for free will. Choice and will being essentially the same thing in the locus of conversation.
No it is not.
 

psalms 91

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If I have a free choice then I have free will to choose so to me it is the same
 

MoreCoffee

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If I have a free choice then I have free will to choose so to me it is the same

Many people choose to believe the gospel and many choose not to. Before they can make a choice they need to hear the gospel. That is the job of Christians. Jesus said "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation." I imagine that you've seen some teenagers who were brought up in church attending families walk away from Christianity for a time - perhaps even permanently. That's making a choice to reject the gospel that they've heard.
 

MennoSota

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If I have a free choice then I have free will to choose so to me it is the same
Except that God has the absolute authority to stop you dead in your tracks and you cannot do anything about it.
We MUST acknowledge that we reside in one of two camps. We are either slaves to sin or we are slaves to righteousness. What is the common factor about both camps? That common factor is we are slaves. We are not free. Either sin has us in bondage or God has us as a bond-slave.
No slave is free to act outside of the parameters of his position. Any attempt to do so will result in reprimand. The slave can make choices within his limited position, but he is never free to act upon his own will. To make such a claim would be an act of rebellion that would bring swift retribution.
So...no...there is no "free-will." There is only freedom of choice within the parameters God gives you.
 

Andrew

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Many people choose to believe the gospel and many choose not to. Before they can make a choice they need to hear the gospel. That is the job of Christians. Jesus said "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation." I imagine that you've seen some teenagers who were brought up in church attending families walk away from Christianity for a time - perhaps even permanently. That's making a choice to reject the gospel that they've heard.
I was one of those kids and it turns out that they were too busy telling there own stories instead of encouraging one to read the bible, they would recite a few lines and then go on a humourous and often made up parable involving themselves which did sound 'nice' at the time but it just didn't have any impact on me because I had yet to actually read the Word myself.
You can't just grab unlearned people and sit them down in a church, read a few lines from the bible that relates to their personal experience and expect people to become believers. Laying on of hands and praying over people had more of an impact for me at a Pentecostal but I had already been absorbing the Word for years by then, the church did wake up the Spirit in me and opened my eyes so I thank God for sending his saints for me...
Now I can go to any church and it all makes better sense after having read the Bible, but as I said before the opposite doesn't really impact too many people.
I would have found it humbling if before, a preacher were to have said "please don't take my word for it, I encourage all young and old to read the Word for yourselves because I cannot possibility explain it all in all it's glory so please, families, hold bible studies with your kids and encourage them to read it in their spare time"
IMO it would have possibly helped rather than sitting in a pew and doing all that stuff that confused me.
Once I went to confession and I didn't know what sin was and he said "have you stolen anything?" and I lied and said that I stole a pencil :/ I think that's also the time I got locked inside the confessional and I couldnt open the door and the priest had to open it up for me and I was like "your not suppose to see me dont look!" lol
 
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