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    Christian Theology - Thread: Transubtantiation and Alchemy?

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      CONsubstantiation was one of the several Eucharistic theories invented by Western Medieval Roman Catholic "Scholastics", all of which were originally mocked but one of which (Transubstantiation) eventually became popular but when Luther rejected it, the RC denomination decided to dogmatize it (albeit a bit after Luther's death).
      Thank you Josiah, but I do not yet know what consubstantiation means. Can you give a definition?
      Lutherans hold to "Real Presence." It is the view that simply accepts what Jesus said and Paul penned. No denials, no deletions, no substitutions. IS = is. BODY = body. BLOOD = blood. FORGIVENESS = forgiveness. And "bread" and "wine" (mentioned more after the consecration than before) are not in any sense denied. All this is accepted by faith. All this is accepted as "mystery" rather than subjecting God to wrong, pagan, pre-science theories. Lutherans reject Catholic and Zwinglian efforts to deny what the texts state and to change it to something that "jibes" with what they think is actually possible for God and what fits with the pop (but wrong) physics concepts of the medieval world.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #22
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by TurtleHare View Post
      Who do you know who believes in consubstantion? Pleas don't day Lutherans cuz it ain't so.
      I've read enough here to know that neither the bread nor blood are physically real, but the mystical "real presence" is actual. At least that's what the Lutherans here claim.
      Now, everybody believes that God is always present (omnipresent), but the Lutherans try to blend in a bit of Rome rather than let the Lord's Supper be in remembrance.
      In either case, RC or LC, you have a bit of alchemy going on where none exists.

    3. #23
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      'Whenever the commemoration of this sacrifice is celebrated, the work of our redemption is enacted'

      "The sacrifices of the Old Law contained only in figure that true sacrifice of Christ's Passion"

      "it was necessary that the sacrifice of the New Law instituted by Christ should have something more, namely, that it should contain Christ himself crucified, not merely in signification or figure, but also in very truth"
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      'Whenever the commemoration of this sacrifice is celebrated, the work of our redemption is enacted'

      "The sacrifices of the Old Law contained only in figure that true sacrifice of Christ's Passion"

      "it was necessary that the sacrifice of the New Law instituted by Christ should have something more, namely, that it should contain Christ himself crucified, not merely in signification or figure, but also in very truth"
      What scripture did that come from?
      Isaiah 40:31

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      What scripture did that come from?
      The first is from saint Thomas Aquinas
      The second from saint John Chrysostom
      The third ... I'll need to check the sources again



      Saint John Chrysostom
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    6. #26
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      Not scripture then and no backing for this, I would call it tradition then
      Isaiah 40:31

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      Not scripture then and no backing for this, I would call it tradition then
      That is right, everything that you and I wrote here in CH that is not a quote from holy scripture is a tradition but some traditions are more enduring than others and some are true while others are not.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; Yesterday at 10:26 AM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I've read enough here to know that neither the bread nor blood are physically real, but the mystical "real presence" is actual. At least that's what the Lutherans here claim.
      Well, it isn't.

      Consubstantiation (as opposed to Transubstantiation): Con means with, therefore bread, wine, body, and blood all are present and real. It is not the case that the bread and wine cease to exist (as in the RC belief). No substance is changed into a different one.










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      Last edited by Albion; Yesterday at 09:17 AM.

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Well, it isn't.

      Consubstantiation (as opposed to Transubstantiation): Con means with, therefore bread, wine, body, and blood all are present and real. It is not the case that the bread and wine cease to exist (as in the RC belief). No substance is changed into a different one.










      .
      Still alchemy.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Consubstantiation (as opposed to Transubstantiation): Con means with, therefore bread, wine, body, and blood all are present and real. It is not the case that the bread and wine cease to exist (as in the RC belief). No substance is changed into a different one..


      IF we strip the entire philosophical construct of Consubstantiation of all its meaning, all its history, all the theory it contains and conveys.... yes, simply looking at the word (and ignoring how the word has been used for nearly 1000 years in Christian theology) it is possible to use it simply to mean that Christ's Body and Blood are really present and so are the bread and wine - a view Lutherans would accept since Lutherans accept what Jesus said and Paul penned. However, that ignores and evades all the word means. It was a theory invented at the same time and by the same people who invented Transubstantiation and is yet another philosophical theory to explain the HOW and WHERE of real presence, which Lutherans do not discuss (preferring to believed and accept the words Jesus said and Paul penned). Luther stressed we accept all this as MYSTERY and embrace NO pagan philosophical or pre-science theories (of which Consubstantiation is one, one that along with Transubstantiation was originally rejected and mocked but unlike Transubstantiation eventually fell from use... it is associated only with Catholics).



      Yes, on 4 occasions in his life, Luther used the words "in" or "with" or "under" (including in the Small Catechism) however Luther and the Lutheran Confessions and Fathers all boldly rejected Consubstantiation, Transubstantiation and all the other attempts to replace Christian mystery with secular philosophy and prescience theories. He simply was forced to distance himself from the pop Catholic theory of the day (not yet official, certainly not yet dogma - that happened suddenly at Trent, a bit after Luther's death). Luther gives no significance to the bread and wine but unlike the medieval Roman Catholic "Scholastic" theory of Transubstantiation, did not deny their full reality and did not declare that Jesus and Paul are wrong to mention them (more often after the Consecration than before, according to St. Paul). Luther places ALL the emphasis on the Body and Blood - which are present because the meaning of is is is and what comes after the is is. This he accepts just as stated (NO subjecting to wrong, pagan philosophies or wrong pre-science concepts) without any denials of any of the words, any limitations of any of the words, no corrections of any of the words BUT Luther needs to distance the Real Presence view from the Transubstantiation theory which of course argues that "is" doesn't mean is and that what comes after the "is" isn't necessarily, and is based on the mandate that we accept a certain understanding of HOW all this happens (alchemy's whole point of Transubstantiation) and why Jesus and Paul didn't mean to say "bread" and "wine" after the Consecration but rather "an Aristotelian Accident of bread and wine." There are Lutherans (including me) who regret Luther 4 times in his life used one or more of those words to distance himself from the pagan, prescience of theories of Alchemy and Aristotle (he should have done what he did the zillions of other times he spoke of this - simply affirm Real Presence) but he did. Four times in his life.... clearly not t support the Catholic theory of Consubstantiation (which he condemned) but to distance himself from the then theory (not yet official teaching) often found in Catholicism, Transubstantiation.



      Again, Luther's position is that what Jesus said and Paul penned is TRUE and not to be denied or corrected. It's ALL accepted - as MYSTERY, with no subjecting to wrong, pagan, secular philosophical or prescience ideas. IS = is. Body = body. Blood = blood. Forgiveness = forgiveness. And there's no reason to accuse Jesus and Paul of error (and correct them) for simply saying that bread and wine mean bread and wine. No, Lutherans don't "explain" the HOW of this, the PHYSICS of all of this (by dogmatizing wrong, pagan, secular theories or otherwise), they just accept and believe. It's called "Real Presence." Luther was opposed to dogmatizing the central alchemic view of Transubstantiation or the Aristotlian idea of accidents (and this was not the case until after his death), rather he held we should rather accept and believe what Jesus said and Paul penned... even though we don't understand the physics involved but have a miracle and mystery here, one hearts should believe rather than doubt and correct.



      Luther considered the pop THEORY (in his day) of Transubstantiation not only unnecessary but dangerous: it is founded on the view that "is" doesn't mean "is" (Present, existing, real) but rather CHANGED from one reality into another via the precise, technical physics mechanism of an alchemic Transubstantiation) , and that what follows the "is" therefore isn't necessarily - we have to pick and choose when something "is" and "isn't" and this employ's Aristotle's very weird theory about accidents to deny half of what comes after the "is." Of course, Zwingli would soon do the exact same thing as the RC denomination - deny that "is" means "is" (he'd change it not to "change...." but to "symbolizes") and following the lead of the RCC, also would reject the full meaning of half of what follows the "is" (in his case, he denies the body and blood as REALLY, fully being there whereas the RCC denied the bread and wine REALLY, fully being there - same/same). Luther feared the approach here... and Zwingli proves he had good reason to. In the words of my Greek Orthodox friend, "The Roman Church would not leave well enough alone" and "The Roman Church insists on messing things up."



      - Josiah




      .




      .
      Last edited by Josiah; Yesterday at 10:51 AM.
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