Should abortion be illegal?

Josiah

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A Christian can rightly say that abortion is immoral without desiring that the state and all the authority of the state be applied to make abortion illegal.

I agree. Now, I would work for the secular state to defend life and justice - as I think is a responsibility of the State - but I agree, technically, the secular state as no mandate to echo the morality of any religion. While I choose to not vote for any pro-death candidate whose office could in any sense impact this issue, and while I support judges who support justice and life for all, I do agree that secular government is not MANDATED to do so, but should. The USA could (and for a long time did) permit slavery, but I would have been among those working for change to that.
 

MoreCoffee

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Beware of what you vote for. You may get it. And then what?
 

Albion

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We would have a more just society??
 

MoreCoffee

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We would have a more just society??

Do you think so? Government leaders have a way of making the law and the power of the state less just than their words make them appear. What penalties will the state enact in its laws against abortion, will they be just and holy and good? Is the justice in a society increased by state fiat?
 

Albion

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Do you think so?
If I vote for one set of principles rather than another one, yes, I often--if not always--get a better society.

Government leaders have a way of making the law and the power of the state less just than their words make them appear. What penalties will the state enact in its laws against abortion, will they be just and holy and good? Is the justice in a society increased by state fiat?

Those are all reasonable questions to ask, but almost every suggestion for change in the way we have been discussing would be an improvement over abortion for convenience sake, including infanticide. That is the situation as it stands now.
 

tango

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I dont have to call anyone anything. What does the bible say? How do you think God views this? Whitewash it any way you wish bottom line is that it is murder and it takes a life and prevents it from being born. Until you can change that then it is what it is.

Endlessly repeating an assertion doesn't make it true.

Try an appeal to chapter and verse that says the bundle of cells is a human, then you'll have something to discuss. You can't legislate based on nothing more than you believing something.
 

tango

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Once again, it looks like "what ifs" are being thrown in the way of saying what abortion is. If we look at murders as we already know and deal with them, we all know that extenuating circumstances affect the legal process, just as happens with other crimes.

So if there are a few--and I emphasize few--extenuating circumstances that might affect the sentencing meted out to someone charged with the murder of an unborn infant, its still a homicide! But, of course, that is not so if the act is never to be considered be a crime in the first place under any circumstances.

For me there are multiple issues here, and each one operates on a different level.

Personally, I struggle to consider abortion to be morally justified. Whatever Scripture might say, whatever the law might say, I struggle with the idea that a pregnancy (at least a pregnancy developed enough for the mother to know she is pregnant) is anything other than a human being. On that basis I would be opposed to abortion and would not seek an abortion for my wife. That doesn't give me any right to demand that anyone else take, or refrain from taking, any specific action.

Next up is the question of what Scripture says. If one can make a compelling appeal to Scripture that demonstrates abortion is unacceptable in God's eyes, only then can it be expected that an argument should have any standing among other Christians. Even then, there is still scope for other Christians to take a different stance backed by their own appeals to Scripture (just as is the case for everything from drinking to dancing to homosexuality). A valid and even solid appeal to Scripture still doesn't give us the right to demand that those who do not follow Jesus pay any attention to us.

To change the law at a national level it would have to be legally recognised that the bundle of cells is in fact a human being in its own right. This requires medical evidence rather than appeals to this or that holy book. And this is how it should be - as soon as we start down the road of expecting elements of our own faith to be enshrined in law we leave things wide open for other faiths to make similar demands.

If the law were to be changed to make abortion illegal the associated question would be what, if any, circumstances would have to exist to make it permissible and whether a definition of such circumstances could be misused. As far as I can see there is no combination of circumstances that would allow for an abortion under the very few extenuating circumstances under which few people could possibly object, that couldn't be abused by a friendly doctor or a false claim.
 

tango

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A Christian can rightly say that abortion is immoral without desiring that the state and all the authority of the state be applied to make abortion illegal.

This is another crucial point that so often gets lost. As I mentioned in my previous post (to be clear, this isn't a dig because my previous post was a few minutes ago) there's a huge difference between a personal conviction that a course of action is inappropriate for me, a Scriptural conviction that a course of action is inappropriate for Christians, and a desire that a particular course of action should be universally unlawful.
 

tango

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Those are all reasonable questions to ask, but almost every suggestion for change in the way we have been discussing would be an improvement over abortion for convenience sake, including infanticide. That is the situation as it stands now.

Would you permit abortion under any circumstances? If so, what circumstances would have to exist for you to consider an abortion to be acceptable?
 

atpollard

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Endlessly repeating an assertion doesn't make it true.

Try an appeal to chapter and verse that says the bundle of cells is a human, then you'll have something to discuss. You can't legislate based on nothing more than you believing something.
By what possible definition is it not a human? Take a DNA test if you have any lingering doubts ... I guarantee that it will not have the DNA of a Dog or Cat. Is there any doubt that it is alive (until someone kills it because “they are not ready to be a parent” - the #1 reason for getting an abortion)?

Is there any verse that suggests that killing an unborn baby is permissible to God?
 

atpollard

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[Amos 1:13 NASB] 13 Thus says the LORD, "For three transgressions of the sons of Ammon and for four I will not revoke its [punishment,] Because they ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead In order to enlarge their borders.

God holds special guilt for the killing of a pregnant woman to destroy the babies.
 

Albion

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For me there are multiple issues here, and each one operates on a different level.

Personally, I struggle to consider abortion to be morally justified. Whatever Scripture might say, whatever the law might say, I struggle with the idea that a pregnancy (at least a pregnancy developed enough for the mother to know she is pregnant) is anything other than a human being. On that basis I would be opposed to abortion and would not seek an abortion for my wife. That doesn't give me any right to demand that anyone else take, or refrain from taking, any specific action.
...kind of like arguing that although you would not commit murder yourself, you aren't about to impose your moral code on your next door neighbor who seems likely to shoot that guy who has been hanging around his daughter.

To change the law at a national level it would have to be legally recognised that the bundle of cells is in fact a human being in its own right.
Science has long since passed beyond the stage when it gave any credence to the “bundle of cells“ theory of fetal development, brother.

If the law were to be changed to make abortion illegal the associated question would be what, if any, circumstances would have to exist to make it permissible and whether a definition of such circumstances could be misused. As far as I can see there is no combination of circumstances that would allow for an abortion under the very few extenuating circumstances under which few people could possibly object, that couldn't be abused by a friendly doctor or a false claim.
...just as there are doctors who abuse the privilege of prescribing pain-killers, but this is no argument for giving abortionists a free pass on what they do.
 

Albion

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Would you permit abortion under any circumstances? If so, what circumstances would have to exist for you to consider an abortion to be acceptable?

As far as that question is concerned, I am reminded of the saying that we ought not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I am in favor of eliminating all abortions except for the rare instances that every other law which prohibits some action has to take account of. I would allow abortions if they would save the life of the mother, for instance.

Beyond that provision, it gets dicey, but there may be other exceptions; and I oppose doing nothing at all about abortions simply because it is a question where to draw the lines on the exceptions.
 

tango

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By what possible definition is it not a human? Take a DNA test if you have any lingering doubts ... I guarantee that it will not have the DNA of a Dog or Cat. Is there any doubt that it is alive (until someone kills it because “they are not ready to be a parent” - the #1 reason for getting an abortion)?

Is there any verse that suggests that killing an unborn baby is permissible to God?

You need to come up with an appeal to Scripture to prohibit it rather than expecting an appeal to Scripture to permit it. Otherwise you'd best get offline because there isn't a single verse in Scripture that says using the internet is acceptable.

The discussion over when life begins isn't whether the fetus is a human as opposed to being some other species but when it makes the transition from "potential human" to "human". AS to whether or not it is alive, that's pretty much what most of the discussion hinges upon so it doesn't really work to try and write off a fundamental point of discussion as if there's no doubt about it.
 

tango

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...kind of like arguing that although you would not commit murder yourself, you aren't about to impose your moral code on your next door neighbor who seems likely to shoot that guy who has been hanging around his daughter.

False equivalence. Your scenario includes a clearly unwilling participant in an event and much of the discussion over abortion relates to whether the fetus is an actual human and therefore whether it can be considered a victim as such.

Science has long since passed beyond the stage when it gave any credence to the “bundle of cells“ theory of fetal development, brother.

Figure of speech. The issue remains whether the fetus should be considered a human or a potential human, and at what point it makes the transition.

...just as there are doctors who abuse the privilege of prescribing pain-killers, but this is no argument for giving abortionists a free pass on what they do.

Except there's little point trying to slam doors shut in a way that creates an open invite to slowly push them wide open again.
 

Arsenios

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Endlessly repeating an assertion doesn't make it true.

Try an appeal to chapter and verse that says the bundle of cells is a human, then you'll have something to discuss. You can't legislate based on nothing more than you believing something.

YOU were once "a bundle of cells"...
You STILL ARE "a bundle of cells"...

Do you know ANYONE who is NOT a "bundle of cells"??

A human, however, is not merely a random bundle of cells...
Man is created both - body and spirit...
The bundle of cells that YOU ARE is not random...
Nor is it separated from your human spirit...
Nor has it ever been...

In the first few days of the Spirit coming upon the Mother of our Lord, she went to see the mother of John the Baptist who was 6 months pregnant, and Christ was recognized by God the Holy Spirit within her as her Lord, as He was also recognized by her child in the womb John...

Arsenios
 

tango

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As far as that question is concerned, I am reminded of the saying that we ought not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I am in favor of eliminating all abortions except for the rare instances that every other law which prohibits some action has to take account of. I would allow abortions if they would save the life of the mother, for instance.

Beyond that provision, it gets dicey, but there may be other exceptions; and I oppose doing nothing at all about abortions simply because it is a question where to draw the lines on the exceptions.

The trouble with creating exceptions is that we can already see where exceptions have landed us. If we allow for an abortion in cases where the mother's health or well-being is in danger what is pretty much 100% guaranteed is that doctors who consider abortion to be little more than a final contraceptive option will say that they consider the mother's well-being is in danger if she continues with the pregnancy and approve an abortion. If we allow for abortion in cases of rape there's immediately another incentive for women to falsely claim they were raped. And if we don't allow abortions under any circumstances then people like my friend who had to abort her (desperately wanted) baby about 8 months into her pregnancy would almost certainly be dead by now.

Where laws relate to killing of humans who are born it's usually easier to identify problems, or even suspicious patterns. The parents whose children are constantly in the ER with unusual injuries might, over time, be investigated more closely. How would you determine whether a pregnant woman who had an accident that resulted in losing her baby were a genuine victim of circumstance or someone who had tried to flout the law by using a backstreet abortion clinic? How would you differentiate between the person using illegal abortions as a method of birth control from the person who genuinely suffered multiple miscarriages?

I agree that a desire to get everything perfect shouldn't hold us up from getting things mostly right, as long as "mostly right" doesn't leave wide open loopholes that mean things look good but actually achieve nothing, or indeed as long as "mostly right" doesn't mean perfectly innocent people come under intense suspicion of committing a serious crime. If a law isn't very good at handling situations that aren't necessarily commonplace the chances are it isn't a good law.
 

Albion

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False equivalence. Your scenario includes a clearly unwilling participant in an event and much of the discussion over abortion relates to whether the fetus is an actual human and therefore whether it can be considered a victim as such.

Not only is it not false equivalence for the reason that the unborn child is an unwilling participant in his death (!), but this is a discussion on a Christian theology forum. I am not about to entertain the argument of the godless secularists simply to give them their day in court as it were. They, of course, probably do agree with your arguments, but that is really irrelevant.
 

tango

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YOU were once "a bundle of cells"...
You STILL ARE "a bundle of cells"...

Do you know ANYONE who is NOT a "bundle of cells"??

A human, however, is not merely a random bundle of cells...
Man is created both - body and spirit...
The bundle of cells that YOU ARE is not random...
Nor is it separated from your human spirit...
Nor has it ever been...

In the first few days of the Spirit coming upon the Mother of our Lord, she went to see the mother of John the Baptist who was 6 months pregnant, and Christ was recognized by God the Holy Spirit within her as her Lord, as He was also recognized by her child in the womb John...

Arsenios

The question remains exactly when the cells become a human in their own right.

Although you've got an appeal to Scripture here it would be more useful to have something that related to more normal human beings - Jesus Christ was very different to most humans, not least because most of us aren't God incarnate.
 

Arsenios

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There's little point trying to slam doors shut
in a way that creates an open invite
to slowly push them wide open again.

IF we are to make a law against abortion, as we should,
we must also make a corollary of that law
the provision for the adoption of the child
rejected by the mother
if she still does not want the child...

Arsenios
 
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