• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 107

    Christian Theology - Thread: Should abortion be illegal?

    1. #1
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,207
      CH Cash
      20,694
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,674
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      27.72%
      Rep Power
      682

      Should abortion be illegal?

      This is a moral question as well as a legal one and it has theological roots as well as civil liberties roots so do not be hasty in answering the question.

      The holy scriptures teach that taking a human life by murder is a sin. One of the commandments given by God is you shall not kill - some prefer to translate that as you shall do no murder. There is a passage about men fighting and a woman being hit and loosing an unborn infant as a result but what that means is hotly disputed. So the decision - if made on the basis of what holy scripture says - will need to be based on general principles rather than on specific and precise legal direction from God.

      My own view is Catholic, I oppose the use of abortion as a means of pregnancy control and as a means of dealing with undesirable and unwanted pregnancies.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #2
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      913
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,767
      CH Challenge
      42
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,758
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      23.11%
      Rep Power
      209
      Ironically, in a perfect world abortion should not be illegal. It should be a valid medical procedure about as common as brain surgery ... something not done lightly, but something done when an absolute medical necessity.

      Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. In the world that we have been given, we must choose between loosing a dozen women who might have been saved if abortions are illegal and a Holocaust of hundreds of thousands of babies killed if abortion is legal. I cannot support continuing the Holocaust of abortion on demand. We have joined Molech in sacrificing our children to a false god of convenience and sin.

    3. Likes psalms 91, Arsenios liked this post
    4. #3
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,207
      CH Cash
      20,694
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,674
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      27.72%
      Rep Power
      682
      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Ironically, in a perfect world abortion should not be illegal. It should be a valid medical procedure about as common as brain surgery ... something not done lightly, but something done when an absolute medical necessity.

      Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. In the world that we have been given, we must choose between loosing a dozen women who might have been saved if abortions are illegal and a Holocaust of hundreds of thousands of babies killed if abortion is legal. I cannot support continuing the Holocaust of abortion on demand. We have joined Molech in sacrificing our children to a false god of convenience and sin.
      If I have read your reply correctly you've said "yes, abortion ought to be illegal".
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. #4
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      Supporting Member
      69
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      12,850
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      2,221
      CH Challenge
      89
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (3,697,970 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      56,367
      Level
      59
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      80.26%
      Rep Power
      591
      Yes, it should be illegal except in very narrow circumstances.
      Isaiah 40:31

    6. #5
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,207
      CH Cash
      20,694
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,674
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      27.72%
      Rep Power
      682
      If it were illegal what penalties ought there to be for the doctor (or other person) performing an abortion?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #6
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      Supporting Member
      69
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      12,850
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      2,221
      CH Challenge
      89
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (3,697,970 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      56,367
      Level
      59
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      80.26%
      Rep Power
      591
      For the doctor loss of license and jail time, for the person getting it, depends on the circumstances
      Isaiah 40:31

    8. #7
      tango's Avatar
      tango is offline Bronze Member
      Valued Contributor
      Supporting Member
      Married
      ... and you shall live ...
       
      Mood:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Location
      Elsewhere
      Posts
      6,392
      CH Cash
      3,341
      CH Challenge
      32
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (5,580,535 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      29,138
      Level
      46
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      32.61%
      Rep Power
      727
      The crucial question underpinning the abortion issue is whether that little bundle of cells counts as a human or not and, more specifically, at what point it counts as a human.

      If the fetus does count as a human then killing it is murder, plain and simple. If it does not count as human then removing it is no more morally significant than having an appendix or a tumor removed. If the fetus does count as a human being then killing it needs to be treated as murder unless there are extenuating circumstances - it seems bizarre to talk of justified homicide where a little bundle of cells that hasn't even been born yet is concerned but, just like it's legal (in some areas, at least) to use deadly force against another human to protect against specific immediate risks, so it should be legal to do the same against a fetus. Of course a fetus is never going to carjack, rape, burgle etc but if the ongong growth of the fetus represents a clear danger to the mother's life it provides a justification to remove it. Existing laws about justified homicide seem like a lot of legal gymnastics, but I think it should be easy enough to make a case for abortion in extreme cases.

      The trouble is that the definition of immediate danger to the mother will invariably get muddied over the years, as indeed it has done already. It's absurd to demand that a woman be denied an abortion even at the cost of her own life yet, if it is believed that the fetus is a human, it is equally absurd to allow her to kill a human for the sake of mere convenience.

      Waters get muddied further depending on exactly when the unborn counts as human. If one accepts the premise that life begins at conception then, by definition, an abortifacient drug or an IUD must be considered a murder weapon. If life begins at implantation some seemingly strange issues are cleared up but logically there must be some punishment for the woman committing grievous harm against her unborn child by drinking heavily, even if she didn't know she was pregnant. Such a situation is also clearly absurd.

      Personally I find many of the appeals to Scripture to prohibit abortion to be unconvincing:

      Some appeal to the introduction to Jeremiah - "before I formed you in the womb I ordained you..." which is all well and good but says nothing about whether that bundle of cells is a human or just a bundle of cells.

      Others appeal to the psalmist (I think 139 off the top of my head) talking about how God formed them in the secret place, knit them together in their mother's womb. That doesn't mean the thing in the womb is living - Adam was formed by God and for a time was man-sized, man-shaped and made by God, but not alive. Then God put breath in him and he lived. If anything that supports the case that the unborn is not alive until it draws its own first breath.

      Instinctively I am drawn to the view that the unborn is a human at some point prior to birth and struggle with the idea that abortion, other than in extreme cases, is morally acceptable. That said, aside from the verse in Exodus used in the OP, I don't find it easy to explicitly support the stance using Scripture.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    9. #8
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,783
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,247
      CH Challenge
      270
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      69,838
      Level
      64
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      74.97%
      Rep Power
      905
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    10. #9
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      16,161
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      200,706
      CH Challenge
      83
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (165,993 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      193,689
      Level
      92
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      7.49%
      Rep Power
      829
      If we can consider life on other planets to be merely small organisms that contain a nucleus then we should surely be considering life in the womb from conception. I think abortion should be illegal because a woman does not have the right to kill her unborn child just because it's in her body.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    11. #10
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,783
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,247
      CH Challenge
      270
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      69,838
      Level
      64
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      74.97%
      Rep Power
      905
      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      If we can consider life on other planets to be merely small organisms that contain a nucleus then we should surely be considering life in the womb from conception. I think abortion should be illegal because a woman does not have the right to kill her unborn child just because it's in her body.

      It's a ploy the pro-choice people learned from the pro-slavery movement in the USA. Everyone knew that the African was ALIVE - had life. They could not deny that, biologically. And of course today, we can prove via DNA that the unborn is HOMO SAPIENS. The question thus was changed to "is this a PERSON?" "Person" is NOT a science term, not a biological term, it's a legal term. The pro-slavery folks argued the African was 100% alive but not fully a PERSON - and thus could be the personal property of one who IS fully a person. When our US Constitution was drawn, it specifically stated that the African was 2/3's a PERSON..... this make it legal to own him as private property and to do with such however one chooses to do with their own property (although in the USA it was technically illegal to murder a slave). The modern "pro-choice" crowd is simply parroting the same absurd point: OBVIOUSLY, the unborn is alive.... and obviously is 100% homo sapiens. But is he or she a PERSON (thus with rights) or PROPERTY (to which the owner can do as they please - even murder)? That's the way the pro-abortion crowd frames this - albeit in clouded language. It's just another twist on the POWER issue we hunmans struggle with: does the one with power have the right to abuse the one with less?


      In this thread here, I give me stance on this issue (and there is a lively discussion): http://christianityhaven.com/showthr...y-I-m-Pro-Life



      "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves" (God)
      "I'm pro-choice, I just think the choice happens in the bedroom" (my mom, lol)



      - Josiah




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •