Leaven or unleavened bread

NewCreation435

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Like it or not, it is far from being beyond dispute. Anyway, are you speculating that a Passover meal occurred first and then what we call the Last Supper occurred right after it?

We see in scripture that Jesus sends his disciples to prepare the Passover meal. Then the next part of the story they are eating. What would you speculate happened?
 

MoreCoffee

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We see in scripture that Jesus sends his disciples to prepare the Passover meal. Then the next part of the story they are eating. What would you speculate happened?

I refuse to speculate and suggest instead that the story as told in the Gospels according to saints Matthew, Mark, and Luke, gives emphasis on the supper being associated with the festival of unleavened bread and that the story as told in the Gospel according to saint John gives emphasis to Jesus dying as the Passover lamb was sacrificed (at around 3 PM on Passover day) the daytime before the night of the Passover meal. I am confident that the chronology can be reconciled without implying inconsistency in the holy scriptures but I am even more confident that both stories are the truth. Jesus died at about the time that the Passover lamb was sacrificed.
 

Albion

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We see in scripture that Jesus sends his disciples to prepare the Passover meal.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that what came off a week later actually WAS a Passover meal.
 

Arsenios

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Respectfully: No one finds God in their Christian walk. All are born sinners. Sinners come in all walks of life, from atheist to pious Christian families. Unless God chooses to give life to their deadness, they will never find God.
I can scream with my loudest voice or most compassionate voice that God is present, and in either case, if God does not reveal Himself to sinners, they will never see him.

I agree, and then we must deal with God's Word:

Romans 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
"I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
"


You see, I am one of these -
I was shocked to find this written...
In the Bible I had so scorned...


Arsenios
 

NewCreation435

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Yes, but that doesn't mean that what came off a week later actually WAS a Passover meal.

a week later? where are you getting that?
 

MennoSota

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Yes, but that doesn't mean that what came off a week later actually WAS a Passover meal.
I was just reading the first 10 chapters of Leviticus. Every grain offering was with unleavened bread. The bread used by Jesus would have been unleavened.
My point in this discussion is that modern communion has very little resemblance to Jesus meal with the disciples.
 

Josiah

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Do you think it matters if the bread served in the Lord's Supper is leavened or not? Why.


I think it is probable that Jesus used unleavened bread when instituting the Sacrament, but it appears He did not mandate the use of such and Paul only mentions "bread." I do not believe it is essential to use unleavened bread, although that is the Lutheran and historic custom/tradition (but not dogma).

It's also probable Jesus used red wine when instituting the Sacrament (grape juice and white wine didn't exist in the ancient world), but again, it doens't seem Jesus mandates such and Paul only mentions "wine" thus I think it's okay to use any form of grape juice (fermented or not) although it is ancient and Lutheran custom to use wine.





.
 

Arsenios

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I was just reading the first 10 chapters of Leviticus. Every grain offering was with unleavened bread. The bread used by Jesus would have been unleavened.

I think you are right - And He took the (unleavened) bread, and He Blessed it, and He broke it, and He gave it to them...

And then we find the two disciples on the road to Emanaeus, who did not recognize Christ UNTIL they SAW Him taking and Blessing and breaking and giving the Bread...

Which strongly suggests that Christ is the New Leaven of the Bread which is the Body of Christ, and:

Luke 14:15 "Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the Kingdom of God."

"Repent and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...!"

My point in this discussion is that modern communion has very little resemblance to Jesus meal with the disciples.

It has the resemblance of the taking, the Blessing, the breaking, and the giving, and the command to take and eat, and the explanation: "For this is My Body which is broken for you and for many, for the remission of sins..."

The only Apostolic Communion that has stopped using leavened bread, who have reverted to the pre-Christian bread of the Jews who murdered our Lord and theirs, the killers of the prophets, is the Latin Communion, and even they have retained it in their "Eastern Rite" Churches...

So yes, it looks a lot different from the Jewish Passover Meal, and this is because it is Christ's Passover, which bestows Life Eternal, and not merely that in Egypt which but spared the first-born for a normal fallen life prior to death...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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I think you are right - And He took the (unleavened) bread, and He Blessed it, and He broke it, and He gave it to them...

And then we find the two disciples on the road to Emanaeus, who did not recognize Christ UNTIL they SAW Him taking and Blessing and breaking and giving the Bread...

Which strongly suggests that Christ is the New Leaven of the Bread which is the Body of Christ, and:

Luke 14:15 "Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the Kingdom of God."

"Repent and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...!"



It has the resemblance of the taking, the Blessing, the breaking, and the giving, and the command to take and eat, and the explanation: "For this is My Body which is broken for you and for many, for the remission of sins..."

The only Apostolic Communion that has stopped using leavened bread, who have reverted to the pre-Christian bread of the Jews who murdered our Lord and theirs, the killers of the prophets, is the Latin Communion, and even they have retained it in their "Eastern Rite" Churches...

So yes, it looks a lot different from the Jewish Passover Meal, and this is because it is Christ's Passover, which bestows Life Eternal, and not merely that in Egypt which but spared the first-born for a normal fallen life prior to death...

Arsenios
What specific verse are you using for Jesus being new leaven?
 

Arsenios

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What specific verse are you using for Jesus being new leaven?

The ones cited, on the basis that He inaugurated the New Passover and is the Sacrificial Lamb, and He instituted the New Covenant in His Body and Blood, which we eat and drink, and He took the bread and said: "Eat of this all of you, this is my Body which is broken for you... " Because He did it with the unleavened bread in which He WAS NOT, and BY His Institution, became the Bread which he Instituted AS His Body, and because He Instituted it in a very certain manner recognizable to those not recognizing Him, and because He Commanded His Apostles to go forth AS they had seen Him do, by all this He IS the leaven that is NOT the leaven of the Pharisee, which is hypocrisy, of which the first Pascha which used unleavened bread, is not the Leavened Bread that IS the Body of our Lord of which we partake and eat...

That is the understanding, but you are right, Scripture does not specify leavened bread, but the Church for the first thousand years with no exceptions at all used leavened bread, and I will take their word against those outside their Communion who come along after a thousand years and decide it should be the non-Christian bread of the Jews who killed Christ... We have something much better, missing from the Old Covenant... The Incarnate Christ-logos of God...

And it very well may be, if i go looking it up, that the Church simply leavened the Bread BECAUSE Christ is in it, and wanted to differentiate it from the Pascha of the Jews, and that Christ is then NOT the new leaven... So I may have over-reached in my observation... But He IS the New Pascha, no question about that!

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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What specific verse are you using for Jesus being new leaven?

Do you not believe that the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the [new] leaven of the kingdom of God?
Matthew 13:33 He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened."
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers …
 

MennoSota

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Do you not believe that the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the [new] leaven of the kingdom of God?
Matthew 13:33 He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened."
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers …
So, where does it say that Jesus is leaven? I don't read it in the two verses you quoted. Am I supposed to magically read it into those verses?
 

MennoSota

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The ones cited, on the basis that He inaugurated the New Passover and is the Sacrificial Lamb, and He instituted the New Covenant in His Body and Blood, which we eat and drink, and He took the bread and said: "Eat of this all of you, this is my Body which is broken for you... " Because He did it with the unleavened bread in which He WAS NOT, and BY His Institution, became the Bread which he Instituted AS His Body, and because He Instituted it in a very certain manner recognizable to those not recognizing Him, and because He Commanded His Apostles to go forth AS they had seen Him do, by all this He IS the leaven that is NOT the leaven of the Pharisee, which is hypocrisy, of which the first Pascha which used unleavened bread, is not the Leavened Bread that IS the Body of our Lord of which we partake and eat...

That is the understanding, but you are right, Scripture does not specify leavened bread, but the Church for the first thousand years with no exceptions at all used leavened bread, and I will take their word against those outside their Communion who come along after a thousand years and decide it should be the non-Christian bread of the Jews who killed Christ... We have something much better, missing from the Old Covenant... The Incarnate Christ-logos of God...

And it very well may be, if i go looking it up, that the Church simply leavened the Bread BECAUSE Christ is in it, and wanted to differentiate it from the Pascha of the Jews, and that Christ is then NOT the new leaven... So I may have over-reached in my observation... But He IS the New Pascha, no question about that!

Arsenios
It seems like you've created an allegory where none exists.
 

MoreCoffee

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So, where does it say that Jesus is leaven? I don't read it in the two verses you quoted. Am I supposed to magically read it into those verses?

For you it seems like magic. For a Catholic it is implied by what Jesus says of himself through the four evangelists (authors of the four canonical gospels) and saint Paul. Jesus is the King of the kingdom of God and Jesus is the head of the body of Christ as well as the presence of the kingdom among the faithful. If you are not familiar with the verses that say each of those things let me know and I will quote them for you. The implication is evident to anybody knowledgeable in the gospel of the kingdom.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Matthew 25:31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. … Matthew 25: 34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
 

MennoSota

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For you it seems like magic. For a Catholic it is implied by what Jesus says of himself through the four evangelists (authors of the four canonical gospels) and saint Paul. Jesus is the King of the kingdom of God and Jesus is the head of the body of Christ as well as the presence of the kingdom among the faithful. If you are not familiar with the verses that say each of those things let me know and I will quote them for you. The implication is evident to anybody knowledgeable in the gospel of the kingdom.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Matthew 25:31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. … Matthew 25: 34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
There is no implication. There is however, projection.
 

MoreCoffee

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There is no implication. There is however, projection.

God is gracious, and wisdom knows her own children. Thanks for your time, MennoSota.
 

Arsenios

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It seems like you've created an allegory where none exists.

It was the best I could do for you...

MC came up with a couple of verses that might help...

I am not all that comfortable with faith by proof anyway...

I prefer the Apostolic Faith by Revelation...

Orthodoxy is where God sent me...

Many converts to Orthodoxy have bags of issues with me too...

Comes with the convert territory...

Monastics have no issues with me in this approach...

They are friends and allies and benefactors...


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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It was the best I could do for you...

MC came up with a couple of verses that might help...

I am not all that comfortable with faith by proof anyway...

I prefer the Apostolic Faith by Revelation...

Orthodoxy is where God sent me...

Many converts to Orthodoxy have bags of issues with me too...

Comes with the convert territory...

Monastics have no issues with me in this approach...

They are friends and allies and benefactors...

Arsenios

Some folk need proof texts. Of course when the proof texts do not suit their theology they can't "see" them. They are "taken out of context" or some other excuse to enable the proof-text seeker to ignore the texts. Patient instruction may work, prayer will work, but how and when is a mystery.
 

MennoSota

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God is gracious, and wisdom knows her own children. Thanks for your time, MennoSota.
So, you pick projection over biblical support?
You truly are wedded to tradition over truth.
 

MennoSota

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It was the best I could do for you...

MC came up with a couple of verses that might help...

I am not all that comfortable with faith by proof anyway...

I prefer the Apostolic Faith by Revelation...

Orthodoxy is where God sent me...

Many converts to Orthodoxy have bags of issues with me too...

Comes with the convert territory...

Monastics have no issues with me in this approach...

They are friends and allies and benefactors...


Arsenios
There is no revelation when there is no scriptural evidence. All that's left is unverified and unsubstantiated opinion. Muhammad and Joseph Smith are good examples of claiming revelation without substance. Do you really want to be in that camp?
 
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