You made your bed now you must lie in it.

MoreCoffee · Aug 18, 2018

Some Christians appear to think that the warnings about judgement and condemnation in the holy scriptures do not apply to them because they reckon that Jesus died for them and they are saved entirely by what Jesus did on the cross (and possibly in life and after the resurrection too). Well is that true? Are the warnings for "other people" and the prospect of condemnation wholly irrelevant for them?

Consider these warnings:

Hebrews 6:1-9 ESV 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Who is that written for and could it apply to you?

And remember: Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. (Galatians 6:7 ESV)

ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 18, 2018

Well, clearly that was a warning for Hebrew Christians not to go back to the works of the Moasic law and has no application to us today.

See how easy that was?

And, wow, those churches in Revelation - sure am glad I wasn't part of all that. God sure was a little ticked off with them. But it's cultural and allegorical at best, so why worry myself?

But then there's this:

Galatians 5:19-21 said:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

All of the Alfred E. Neuman "what, me worry?" posturing sort of disappears with that (as it should with the others). Paul very conveniently covers all the bases for us. And closer examination of the Hebrews passage and the warning to the churches in Revelation will reveal the very state of ourselves as well (if we are honest)

MoreCoffee · Aug 18, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
Well, clearly that was a warning for Hebrew Christians not to go back to the works of the Moasic law

Why is it clearly a warning for Hebrew Christians and why is it a warning not to go back to the works of the Mosaic law? The passage doesn't say any of that.

and has no application to us today.

Why would it have no application to Christians today?

See how easy that was?

Sure, it is always easy to dismiss something. You just say: "hey look over there, bees!" or something else that distracts while the issue is quickly bypassed and some new topic put in its place.

And, wow, those churches in Revelation - sure am glad I wasn't part of all that. God sure was a little ticked off with them. But it's cultural and allegorical at best, so why worry myself?

I appreciate the irony. God bless.

But then there's this:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
All of the Alfred E. Neuman "what, me worry?" posturing sort of disappears with that (as it should with the others). Paul very conveniently covers all the bases for us. And closer examination of the Hebrews passage and the warning to the churches in Revelation will reveal the very state of ourselves as well (if we are honest)

Being honest is too hard, isn't it? Holding up the mirror and seeing yourself then walking away to forget is the easy way. It may well be the broad and spacious road that leads to destruction.

ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 18, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Why is it clearly a warning for Hebrew Christians and why is it a warning not to go back to the works of the Mosaic law? The passage doesn't say any of that.

It's a common defense I hear of the passage of why it doesn't necessarily apply to the Christian today - and certainly not to the Gentile who was never under the law in the first place. It's a convenient way to dodge the issue that the passage does, in fact, apply to us and our lives, and does serve as a very severe warning to us.

MoreCoffee said:
Why would it have no application to Christians today?

It can, and it should.

MoreCoffee said:
Sure, it is always easy to dismiss something. You just say: "hey look over there, bees!" or something else that distracts while the issue is quickly bypassed and some new topic put in its place.

Yes, such as Grace and mumblings about "how dare you preach works righteousness"

MoreCoffee said:
I appreciate the irony. God bless.

I try my best

MoreCoffee said:
Being honest is too hard, isn't it? Holding up the mirror and seeing yourself then walking away to forget is the easy way. It may well be the broad and spacious road that leads to destruction.

Honesty is indeed hard. But it seems to me that there's no way around such a statement as "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God". I've not heard anything convincing that tells me Paul meant anything different from what he said. I've heard some try to explain it away by suggesting that inheriting the kingdom of God is different than initial salvation, but that just makes my head swim.

Albion · Aug 18, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
Well, clearly that was a warning for Hebrew Christians not to go back to the works of the Moasic law and has no application to us today.

See how easy that was?

Yes, I think I do. Thanks.

Andrew · Aug 18, 2018

http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?t=4890

MennoSota · Aug 19, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Some Christians appear to think that the warnings about judgement and condemnation in the holy scriptures do not apply to them because they reckon that Jesus died for them and they are saved entirely by what Jesus did on the cross (and possibly in life and after the resurrection too). Well is that true? Are the warning for "other people" and the prospect of condemnation wholly irrelevant for them?

Consider these warnings:

Hebrews 6:1-9 ESV 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
Who is that written for and could it apply to you?

And remember: Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. (Galatians 6:7 ESV)

If it were possible for the elect to deny Christ and his gracious choice, there would be no other means of salvation. Since God does not make this possible, the elect will not deny Christ.

ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 19, 2018

MennoSota said:
If it were possible for the elect to deny Christ and his gracious choice, there would be no other means of salvation. Since God does not make this possible, the elect will not deny Christ.

Like I said. Easy. Why worry.

Cassia · Aug 19, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
.... Paul very conveniently covers all the bases for us....

God’s ‘purpose’ is revealed in the New Testament as the riches of the glory to the saints in Christ’s covenant, while God’s ‘council of His will’ is His grace over law in the works covenant with a view to His administration. As yet all things are not subjected to Him. Now patience in His waiting for the enemy to be placed under His feet by the Father is also seen in the hope of His glory to come which is also the stand of those who wait with Him. Faith being the assurance of things hope for and conviction of things not seen means there must be truth behind conviction , rather than ‘cleverly designed schemes’. Hebrews 11:29 ( nickled and dimed )

Lamb · Aug 19, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Some Christians appear to think that the warnings about judgement and condemnation in the holy scriptures do not apply to them because they reckon that Jesus died for them and they are saved entirely by what Jesus did on the cross (and possibly in life and after the resurrection too). Well is that true? Are the warnings for "other people" and the prospect of condemnation wholly irrelevant for them?

Consider these warnings:

Hebrews 6:1-9 ESV 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
Who is that written for and could it apply to you?

And remember: Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. (Galatians 6:7 ESV)

Law and Gospel are both true but the Gospel will trump the Law for believers who are trusting in Jesus as their Savior.

The Law always accuses us of our sins. We are told by the Law that we must do or else.

The Gospel tells us that our sins are forgiven because Jesus died on the cross. On Judgment Day we are assured that because our sins are forgiven that the things we did wrong...well, they're forgiven. This is what Christians believe. We don't have to worry about God's wrath because Jesus died and His sacrifice was accepted.

MoreCoffee · Aug 19, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Law and Gospel are both true but the Gospel will trump the Law for believers who are trusting in Jesus as their Savior.

The Law always accuses us of our sins. We are told by the Law that we must do or else.

The Gospel tells us that our sins are forgiven because Jesus died on the cross. On Judgment Day we are assured that because our sins are forgiven that the things we did wrong...well, they're forgiven. This is what Christians believe. We don't have to worry about God's wrath because Jesus died and His sacrifice was accepted.

It seems like Lutherans apply law/gospel filtering lenses to many passages that make no mention whatever of law/gospel distinctions. Isn't that what commentators rightly call Eisegesis?

Cassia · Aug 19, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Isn't that what commentators rightly call Eisegesis?

Isn't that ironic.

MoreCoffee · Aug 19, 2018

Cassia said:
Isn't that ironic.

Yes. There is irony in creating a theology that has to trumps scripture yet asserts 'sola scriptura' as a foundation principle. Is that what you were thinking?

Cassia · Aug 19, 2018

Monotheistic theologians are those who seek to understand the nature of God in order to understand the new nature of mankind brought about by the finished work of Christ. In His death which justifies and His Resurrection in Power to bring about the hope of glorification. The beginning of understanding is in His character. Those who do not understand God’s character are about the business of projecting themselves into immensity because the line is not drawn straight to the Father in describing His attributes. Instead they are bearing witness to their own.

ImaginaryDay2 · Aug 20, 2018

If we "don't need to worry", then we've made Paul a liar when he says that "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" in regards to the works of the flesh. Or is there some separate meaning we're supposed to take away from that? Remember, he was writing to Christians, not to unbelievers or new converts (key phrase - "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:21b). The word "do" can be translated "make a practice of doing".

The only way that can be understood in relation to "no need to worry because Jesus' sacrifice paid for it all" would be to insert some other meaning to "shall not inherit the kingdom of God". If there is another meaning, other than the clear meaning of the phrase, I'd love to hear it.

MoreCoffee · Aug 20, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
If we "don't need to worry", then we've made Paul a liar when he says that "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" in regards to the works of the flesh. Or is there some separate meaning we're supposed to take away from that? Remember, he was writing to Christians, not to unbelievers or new converts (key phrase - "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:21b). The word "do" can be translated "make a practice of doing".

The only way that can be understood in relation to "no need to worry because Jesus' sacrifice paid for it all" would be to insert some other meaning to "shall not inherit the kingdom of God". If there is another meaning, other than the clear meaning of the phrase, I'd love to hear it.

Somebody is bound to think up some reason/excuse for ignoring saint Paul's warning if they managed to think up reasons for ignoring what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 25 about works and the last judgement.

Lamb · Aug 20, 2018

ImaginaryDay2 said:
If we "don't need to worry", then we've made Paul a liar when he says that "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" in regards to the works of the flesh. Or is there some separate meaning we're supposed to take away from that? Remember, he was writing to Christians, not to unbelievers or new converts (key phrase - "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:21b). The word "do" can be translated "make a practice of doing".

The only way that can be understood in relation to "no need to worry because Jesus' sacrifice paid for it all" would be to insert some other meaning to "shall not inherit the kingdom of God". If there is another meaning, other than the clear meaning of the phrase, I'd love to hear it.

Do you really think that Jesus didn't die for those who did those sins?

Yes, Paul is telling Christians that their sins could lead them to fall away...to reject the Savior and His forgiveness if they think they don't need His forgiveness. He was giving them the Law.

The Law is used when people are proud in their sin. It is meant to accuse.

The Gospel is given when people are in despair over their sin.

MoreCoffee · Aug 20, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Do you really think that Jesus didn't die for those who did those sins?

Jesus' death is for all humankind. Jesus' death saves only those who are in Christ. So unless universalism is true then some for whom Jesus dies are not in Christ. Or do you have a theory that is similar to Calvinism's "Limited Atonement"?

Yes, Paul is telling Christians that their sins could lead them to fall away...to reject the Savior and His forgiveness if they think they don't need His forgiveness. He was giving them the Law.

Saint Paul gave them the gospel and part of the gospel is that: "When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21

The Law is used when people are proud in their sin. It is meant to accuse.

The Gospel is given when people are in despair over their sin.

Lamb · Aug 20, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Jesus' death is for all humankind. Jesus' death saves only those who are in Christ. So unless universalism is true then some from whom Jesus dies are not in Christ. Or do you have a theory that is similar to Calvinism's "Limited Atonement"?

Saint Paul gave them the gospel and part of the gospel is that: "When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21

Lutherans do not believe that all are saved. But Lutherans believe that the atonement is for all. It's just that those who reject the Savior and His forgiveness damn themselves.

MoreCoffee · Aug 20, 2018

Lämmchen said:
Lutherans do not believe that all are saved. But Lutherans believe that the atonement is for all. It's just that those who reject the Savior and His forgiveness damn themselves.

Yes, that is true; those who reject Jesus Christ are judged already because they rejected the Son of God. That is what I said. And saint Paul's warning that When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21 applies to Christians. What you make of it is up to you as for me I am convinced that the warning is serious and a Christian can turn away from the Lord Jesus and engage in such things which may lead to condemnation unless it is repented of and the sinner returns to the Lord Jesus Christ.

You made your bed now you must lie in it.

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