Purgatory

MoreCoffee

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Addressing this to MC, temporal punishment after sin forgiven by God? Where is that scriptural and isnt Gods forgiveness enough? We must do more because God is not able to fully forgive sin?

It's in First Corinthians chapter three. It's also in the other passages I posted in my first reply to Romanos. Specifically in these passages
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgement of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Because it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​
 

psalms 91

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Sorry MC I see those scriptures differently. Once dead it is to late, it is for the living that Christ died and those already in hell will be resurrected at the Great white throne judgement but not until and then only to determine their part in the lake of fire
 

Josiah

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Specifically in these passages

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​


It seems you've well documented how biblically baseless this new, unique Dogma of the singular, individual RC denomination actually is.



- Josiah




.
 

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MC wouldn't it better suit your argument if you just state the RCCs allowance to advocate purgatory and other non scriptural claims by "what you hold true on Earth will be held true in Heaven"?
The Popes claim that due to succession of Peter they can basically create a belief that God will uphold in Heaven, this has always been my understanding of why the Papacy enforces dogma as truth.
The scriptures you posted imply that God will purify us... I believe that it was the suffering and death of Christ and his descending into Hell, resurrection and ascension that we are entered into Gods grace and Mercy blameless of sin.
 

popsthebuilder

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Numerous saints referred to the following passages when discussing purgatory

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgement of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)


Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Because it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Do you think "purgatory" could refer to a time of purification of the soul while one is here....I'm this life/ existence?

peace

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popsthebuilder

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If purgatory is extra purification/punishment for sin, what's the point of Jesus as sacrifice for all sin?
Would both not be for the direction of the believer?

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popsthebuilder

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It's purification from sin in a violent manner.
But wait there is hope! The Pope will knock off your time in purgatory by following his tweets!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets
btw
491ba4f72dbf2c23aae8bd49d3db0ae5.jpg
That was uncalled for.

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popsthebuilder

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Addressing this to MC, temporal punishment after sin forgiven by God? Where is that scriptural and isnt Gods forgiveness enough? We must do more because God is not able to fully forgive sin?
How is it that you do not see that it is for the believer that they be made holy by submission to the will of GOD through Christ?

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How is it that you do not see that it is for the believer that they be made holy by submission to the will of GOD through Christ?

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Believers have the Holy Spirit within them...hence, they are holy.
 

Andrew

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That was uncalled for.

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How so? Did you read the article?
This thread is about purgatory and apparently the Pope can save you from it via social media...
 

popsthebuilder

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Believers have the Holy Spirit within them...hence, they are holy.
What commune does evil have with that which is Holy?

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popsthebuilder

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How so? Did you read the article?
This thread is about purgatory and apparently the Pope can save you from it via social media...
That is nonsense and in no way related to purgatory to me. I don't doubt that mc may ha e a similar stance.

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What commune does evil have with that which is Holy?

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Do you have the Holy Spirit? Are you holy or not because of Him?
 

Albion

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All of this (above) represents a drift away from the topic here.

Purgatory is a Medieval myth and totally unscriptural. But the Catholic Church is stuck with it, so she is attempting in our time to sanitize the concept down to the point that it might be palatable to modern Catholic laypersons.

The intention is to retain the word while completely ditching the definition that the CC has taught for half a millennium. The case of Limbo is similar except that Limbo was never defined by a church council, but that situation doesn't apply to Purgatory, so a more subtle "killing off" of Purgatory is needed.
 

psalms 91

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How is it that you do not see that it is for the believer that they be made holy by submission to the will of GOD through Christ?

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Of course I accept that pops, what gave you the idea that I didnt? We will be made holy by Christ and by our walk here on earth by being in submission to God and when we stray then God will deal with us and try to lead us back to the right path. As for the fire I believe that refers to trials and tribulations that help to purify us
 

psalms 91

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Believers have the Holy Spirit within them...hence, they are holy.
I have seen some pretty unholy people in church Lamm. Yes we haver the Holy Spirit to help us to follow Gods path rather than our own and to lead us into the place that we need to be but we can resist and disobey and at times just totally miss hearing the voice of the Spirit as well
 

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That is nonsense and in no way related to purgatory to me. I don't doubt that mc may ha e a similar stance.

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Oh ok then, I guess the Pope lied and also salvation from purgatory is unrelated to purgatory... :/
 

popsthebuilder

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Do you have the Holy Spirit? Are you holy or not because of Him?
I still sin. Scripture is plain about sin and how it doesn't mingle with that which is Holy.

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popsthebuilder

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Of course I accept that pops, what gave you the idea that I didnt? We will be made holy by Christ and by our walk here on earth by being in submission to God and when we stray then God will deal with us and try to lead us back to the right path. As for the fire I believe that refers to trials and tribulations that help to purify us
Just seems descriptive of "purgatory" is all

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I still sin. Scripture is plain about sin and how it doesn't mingle with that which is Holy.

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So do you think the Holy Spirit comes and goes when you sin and when you don't? That's not how it works. Christ paid for all our sins. We are forgiven. We are Holy because of Christ's death on the cross and by grace through faith we trust in that forgiveness. The Holy Spirit lives in us as we are believers. Believe that you are a saint because of Christ. You still sin, yes, but you are forgiven. Believe it.
 
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