Purgatory

Romanos · Jul 15, 2018

Where Scripture do Catholics use to support Purgatory?

MoreCoffee · Jul 15, 2018

Romanos said:
Where Scripture do Catholics use to support Purgatory?

Numerous saints referred to the following passages when discussing purgatory

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgement of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Because it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Albion · Jul 16, 2018

Except that none of those describes Purgatory.

Josiah · Jul 17, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Numerous saints referred to the following passages when discussing purgatory

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Correct. There is nothing in Scripture that supports this new, unique dogma of the singular RC denomination.... nothing.

.

MoreCoffee · Jul 17, 2018

Josiah said:
Correct. There is nothing in Scripture that supports this new, unique dogma of the singular RC denomination.... nothing.

Evidently the passages in holy scripture do not convince you. Never mind. I provided them because that is what Romanos asked in the first post in this thread.

Romanos said:
Where Scripture do Catholics use to support Purgatory?

Numerous saints referred to the following passages when discussing purgatory

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgement for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgement of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Because it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Albion · Jul 17, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Numerous saints referred to the following passages when discussing purgatory

WHO would they be? (not that it would prove that there is a Purgatory merely because someone tried to use these verses. You did, after all, and there still isn't a Purgatory

)

But who, for example?

Andrew · Jul 17, 2018

If purgatory is extra purification/punishment for sin, what's the point of Jesus as sacrifice for all sin?

Albion · Jul 17, 2018

DHoffmann said:
If purgatory is extra purification/punishment for sin, what's the point of Jesus as sacrifice for all sin?

Bingo! And in the same vein, we might ask why Jesus' sacrifice did not accomplish its purpose?

MoreCoffee · Jul 17, 2018

DHoffmann said:
If purgatory is extra purification/punishment for sin, what's the point of Jesus as sacrifice for all sin?

But it is not that. It is not "extra purification/punishment for sin". Where'd you get that absurd idea?

Andrew · Jul 17, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
But it is not that. It is not "extra purification/punishment for sin". Where'd you get that absurd idea?

So... it's for fun? A willful hop into fire? What's the purpose again?
Seriously I was always taught that it was a needed purification process for sin, a state of temporal limbo, not yet worthy of salvation. I believe in baptism by fire and purification in the here and now, in life we will have tribulation etc... Revelation speaks of buying gifts from Christ tried in fire.
Lets start over... What is the purpose of Purgatory?

MoreCoffee · Jul 18, 2018

DHoffmann said:
So... it's for fun? A willful hop into fire? What's the purpose again?
Seriously I was always taught that it was a needed purification process for sin, a state of temporal limbo, not yet worthy of salvation. I believe in baptism by fire and purification in the here and now, in life we will have tribulation etc... Revelation speaks of buying gifts from Christ tried in fire.
Lets start over... What is the purpose of Purgatory?

For metals purging by fire burns away dross and dross is impurities in the metal. For medical conditions purging by surgery and by medicines is removing tumours, viruses, bacteria, and various infection agents these are impurities that cause the symptoms of illnesses. For the soul purging is removing habits of thought, action, desire that are morally damaging these are impurities that cause sin and lead to separation from God if they are not dealt with. Purgatory is about the soul and purifying it. Saint Paul uses the analogy of metals purified in flames as well as precious stones also purified by flame. The saints used both saint Paul's analogies and medical analogies in their writings. None of this is what you lightly call "a wilful hop into fire" and none of it has to do with punishing sins.

Albion · Jul 18, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
But it is not that. It is not "extra purification/punishment for sin". Where'd you get that absurd idea?

That is the Roman Catholic Church's belief, MC.

So the answer is both basic and complicated. The souls have been forgiven of mortal sins that are in purgatory (hence their existence in purgatory rather than in hell). They are not going through a means of 'forgiveness', which is only one form of penance (the more primary, albeit), but are going through another form of penance just as necessary for the attainment of salvation; finite punishment. It is this punishment that is necessary for the means of amending the debts of venial and otherwise imperfect tendencies. Christ did not abolish finite punishment for the believer as he did eternal punishment; he allowed it the opportunity of being satisfactory. It is this satisfactory punishment that souls in purgatory go through in order to achieve the merit of perfection, not in judicial terms (which is achieved through Christ), but in active terms (which is existent within the free, independent will of the person).

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/42773/what-is-the-means-of-forgiveness-in-purgatory

.

psalms 91 · Jul 18, 2018

Sounds a lot like the righteous side of hell which is now located in heaven and not in hell. Further once dead there is no further atonement for sin, and I thought Christ paid the price for our sin?

MoreCoffee · Jul 18, 2018

Some random web site is your source? [MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION]; Good luck with that then.

MoreCoffee · Jul 18, 2018

psalms 91 said:
Sounds a lot like the righteous side of hell which is now located in heaven and not in hell. Further once dead there is no further atonement for sin, and I thought Christ paid the price for our sin?

Well, brother psalms 91, don't place too much trust in Albion's web site source.

psalms 91 · Jul 18, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Well, brother psalms 91, don't place too much trust in Albion's web site source.

OK MC I would be interested in what you have to say about purgatory as this concept is foreign to me and at least at this point a view I do not accept

Andrew · Jul 18, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Well, brother psalms 91, don't place too much trust in Albion's web site source.

It's purification from sin in a violent manner.
But wait there is hope! The Pope will knock off your time in purgatory by following his tweets!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets
btw

psalms 91 · Jul 18, 2018

By that definition not scriptural

Albion · Jul 18, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Well, brother psalms 91, don't place too much trust in Albion's web site source.

Try this one then.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal punishment
That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/

psalms 91 · Jul 18, 2018

Albion said:
Try this one then.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal punishment
That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/

Addressing this to MC, temporal punishment after sin forgiven by God? Where is that scriptural and isnt Gods forgiveness enough? We must do more because God is not able to fully forgive sin?

Purgatory

God is good.

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