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    Results 11 to 20 of 23

    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Do the ends justify the means?

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Does the Bible condone lying or is lying a sin?
      The Bible is not a moralistic book...

      It is the Book of God...

      She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

      She risked her life for their sakes...

      And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

      And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

      The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

      It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

      Arsenios

    2. Likes MoreCoffee, psalms 91 liked this post
    3. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      The Bible is not a moralistic book...

      It is the Book of God...

      She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

      She risked her life for their sakes...

      And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

      And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

      The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

      It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

      Arsenios
      There's a whiff in the air here, like a 'base party' being set up for a 'fall'. The call is to mount the high horse, charge forward, slay the immoral, and claim the jousting trophy. Only thing is that like the tale of Don Quixote this is a joust at a windmill.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    4. #13
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      No she didn't...

      Had she betrayed the spies,
      THEN...
      She would have sinned...

      But she did NOT betray the SERVANTS of God to God's ENEMIES...

      THAT would BE a SIN...

      So you are mistaken in this approach...

      Arsenios
      Would God have honored her had she not lied? She is commended for her faith, not for her lie.

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    6. #14
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      The Bible is not a moralistic book...

      It is the Book of God...

      She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

      She risked her life for their sakes...

      And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

      And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

      The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

      It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

      Arsenios
      Wad Rachel exempt from sinning? Hardly. We find that she is a prostitute running a brothel in Jericho.
      God does not commend her behavior. God commends her faith. God, by grace uses her sinful nature to accomplish His will. That is a great reminder to us that despite our often wicked and sinful behavior, God is gracious and uses us for His glory anyhow.

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    8. #15
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      We often try to justify our behavior because our plans worked out favorably...for us. This does not mean the end justified the means.

    9. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Would God have honored her had she not lied? She is commended for her faith, not for her lie.
      You are correct. The bible neither condemns nor praises the lie. But the bible does condemn bearing false witness.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    10. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      You are correct. The bible neither condemns nor praises the lie. But the bible does condemn bearing false witness.
      Holy scripture commends the act of saving the spies and integral to that act is the deception wrought on the Jericho guards.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    11. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Holy scripture commends the act of saving the spies and integral to that act is the deception wrought on the Jericho guards.
      Hiding the spies saved them.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    12. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Hiding the spies saved them.
      The spies were hidden under some reeds up on the roof. But the act of hiding them worked only by saying to the Jericho guards "they left" which was the lie that she told. The guards didn't bother doing a search because Rahab - being a Jericho citizen - said they left. Evidently she was trusted. Anyway, it is a bit silly to pretend that Rahab was commended for putting them up on the roof and under some reeds but that she sinned by lying and hence "deserved condemnation" for sinning. But if you want to do the silly thing okay. Nobody can stop you. But it is good to keep in view what Joshua says happened "But Rahab had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” "
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    13. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The spies were hidden under some reeds up on the roof. But the act of hiding them worked only by saying to the Jericho guards "they left" which was the lie that she told. The guards didn't bother doing a search because Rahab - being a Jericho citizen - said they left. Evidently she was trusted. Anyway, it is a bit silly to pretend that Rahab was commended for putting them up on the roof and under some reeds but that she sinned by lying and hence "deserved condemnation" for sinning. But if you want to do the silly thing okay. Nobody can stop you. But it is good to keep in view what Joshua says happened "But Rahab had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” "
      What "silly thing" (your words) are you accusing me of doing?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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