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    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: Refugees

    1. #1
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Refugees

      Stranded Refugees Struggle In Greece

      Do you remember when there was an influx of refugees to Greece? They're doing poorly...and so are the areas of Greece that was forced to take them in.

      These countries where there is strife need to get their acts together. We can't squeeze all of their people into other nations and expect everyone to thrive. The governments need to work it out and so far they're failing. Greedy men. Men lusting after power and land, etc...

      What's the solution?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    2. #2
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Stranded Refugees Struggle In Greece

      Do you remember when there was an influx of refugees to Greece? They're doing poorly...and so are the areas of Greece that was forced to take them in.

      These countries where there is strife need to get their acts together. We can't squeeze all of their people into other nations and expect everyone to thrive. The governments need to work it out and so far they're failing. Greedy men. Men lusting after power and land, etc...

      What's the solution?
      A solution is to stop sending arms and troops into nations that are becoming unstable and where revolutionaries are working to overthrow an allegedly repressive government. Let the people in a country work out their own internal problems. Sending in arms and/or troops makes an unstable situation into a civil war and that creates lots of refugees. Even Saddam in Iraq was preferable to the chaos and slaughter that came after the USA and its "coalition of the willing" invaded in 2003. The current middle eastern refugee situation is connected to the power vacuum created by the demise of Iraq as a more-or-less-coherent nation. It will be much worse if Iran is similarly destabilised. And the current civil war in Syria is what caused a great deal of Europe's refugee problem. One cannot blame the Europeans for looking at current USA foreign practises (policy seems too generous a title for the semi-chaotic actions of the current USA administration) with a critical eye. The situation in Syria and Libya is as damaging to European stability as would be a situation where European Union governments sent arms and troops into Mexico, central American nations, and northern South american nations to destabilise their governments and create civil war in those lands.

      Of course no simple single idea is going to solve the current chaos. Chaos is much easier to make than to fix. In Syria and Libya it is too late to undo the damage. The fix will take a long time and cost many lives and create many refugees. And the only fix that will work is one found by the people of Libya and the people of Syria. Let them sort their own nations out. If need be separate states/nations may be the only viable solution and some wars may come from it. But the former unstable situation is passed now and some new unstable or stable situation is yet to emerge. Just be sure that foreign interventions do not work well. That is a lesson that history shows over and over again.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 07-04-2018 at 07:10 AM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    4. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      A solution is to stop sending arms and troops into nations that are becoming unstable and where revolutionaries are working to overthrow an allegedly repressive government. Let the people in a country work out their own internal problems. Sending in arms and/or troops makes an unstable situation into a civil war and that creates lots of refugees. Even Saddam in Iraq was preferable to the chaos and slaughter that came after the USA and its "coalition of the willing" invaded in 2003. The current middle eastern refugee situation is connected to the power vacuum created by the demise of Iraq as a more-or-less-coherent nation. It will be much worse if Iran is similarly destabilised. And the current civil war in Syria is what caused a great deal of Europe's refugee problem. One cannot blame the Europeans for looking at current USA foreign practises (policy seems too generous a title for the semi-chaotic actions of the current USA administration) with a critical eye. The situation in Syria and Libya is as damaging to European stability as would be a situation where European Union governments sent arms and troops into Mexico, central American nations, and northern South american nations to destabilise their governments and create civil war in those lands.

      Of course no simple single idea is going to solve the current chaos. Chaos is much easier to make than to fix. In Syria and Libya it is too late to undo the damage. The fix will take a long time and cost many lives and create many refugees. And the only fix that will work is one found by the people of Libya and the people of Syria. Let them sort their own nations out. If need be separate states/nations may be the only viable solution and some wars may come from it. But the former unstable situation is passed now and some new unstable or stable situation is yet to emerge. Just be sure that foreign interventions do not work well. That is a lesson that history shows over and over again.
      I agree that Islamic cultures with their penchant for killing each other and for killing non-islamics very much need, indeed require, oppressive governments... The Obama-Clinton foreign policy of disrupting the reasonably stable opressive Islamic governments in Egypt, Lybia and Syria is the root cause of the refugee problem... Plus the action of pulling out of Iraq prematurely and throwing away our efforts there... And all this on the basis of their "violations of human rights" which does not apply in such cultures... We even attacked Serbia for its response to Islamic attacks...

      We need to let Assad alone to clean out his country of foreign fighters and re-stabilize the Government rule of law insofar as it is appropriate... Putin's focus on stability of the regimes and the rights of Christian minorities in Islamic countries is one possible and I think sensible approach... Recognizing the radicalized elements of Islamic State terrorists as enemies of the people and being in a state of war against them should be another... And supporting the pacifying presence of the Christian Faith in the regions yet another... And the opening up of the regions to trade and commerce another...

      Exporting freedom and human rights to Islamic countries with oppressive regimes in power cannot be easily done, and should be done by the converesion of one of those countries willingly... And the Mother Country of Islam is Saudi Arabia... And there is some movement there...

      I think you are under-estimating Trump's foreign policy...

      And I pray that you are under-estimating it...

      And I hope that you are praying for our president daily...

      Just as we prayed for Obama daily when he was president...

      Arsenios

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    6. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Stranded Refugees Struggle In Greece

      Do you remember when there was an influx of refugees to Greece? They're doing poorly...and so are the areas of Greece that was forced to take them in.

      These countries where there is strife need to get their acts together. We can't squeeze all of their people into other nations and expect everyone to thrive. The governments need to work it out and so far they're failing. Greedy men. Men lusting after power and land, etc...

      What's the solution?
      There is no quick and easy solution for this. What we as Americans need to do is simply withdraw. We need to let the citizens of other countries deal with their own problems while we own the part we played in manufacturing and encouraging those problems. If they need help, let them ask us and then let them tell us within what parameters we can work to help ease the suffering in those countries. Trying the be the world's law enforcement has caused nothing but anguish for everybody concerned. Maybe we should just leave the world alone for awhile and try to clean up the spectacular mess we have here in the United States.

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    8. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Confessional Lutheran View Post
      There is no quick and easy solution for this. What we as Americans need to do is simply withdraw. We need to let the citizens of other countries deal with their own problems while we own the part we played in manufacturing and encouraging those problems. If they need help, let them ask us and then let them tell us within what parameters we can work to help ease the suffering in those countries. Trying the be the world's law enforcement has caused nothing but anguish for everybody concerned. Maybe we should just leave the world alone for awhile and try to clean up the spectacular mess we have here in the United States.
      While I can sympathize with that thought it is not a good one, pre world war two there was an isolationist movement and a strong anti war sentiment and you saw how well that worked. Unfortunately the worlds economies are intertwined and so are the problems that nations face, while we could do that I am also sure that at some point it would come back on us
      Isaiah 40:31

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    10. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      While I can sympathize with that thought it is not a good one, pre world war two there was an isolationist movement and a strong anti war sentiment and you saw how well that worked. Unfortunately the worlds economies are intertwined and so are the problems that nations face, while we could do that I am also sure that at some point it would come back on us
      Without doubt our economies are intertwined, but I still think that were we to refuse to meddle in the sociopolitical development of other countries, we might all be better off for it. I also mentioned that we could help other countries, but on their own terms rather than ours. The Isolationist movement at the time of the Second World War failed because we actually were offering clandestine help to our allies before the Japanese bombed the Naval port at Pearl Harbor and Hitler declared war on us the very next day https://history.state.gov/milestones...945/lend-lease.
      Last edited by Confessional Lutheran; 07-05-2018 at 11:06 PM. Reason: I see there isn't a delete option here. Never mind.

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