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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: When was Satan created and does it effect the length of days in Genesis 1

    1. #1
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      When was Satan created and does it effect the length of days in Genesis 1

      Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."
      Had God already created the angels in an earlier creation or were the angels created in the first "days" of the creation? If the angels were created during those days, must the days of creation therefore be longer than 24 hour days so that the rise and fall of Lucifer and the other angels could take place before humans were created on the 6th day?

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."
      Had God already created the angels in an earlier creation or were the angels created in the first "days" of the creation? If the angels were created during those days, must the days of creation therefore be longer than 24 hour days so that the rise and fall of Lucifer and the other angels could take place before humans were created on the 6th day?
      I don't believe in the 24 hour day because there was no sun to measure time, this leaves me to believe the "gap theory" so to speak, and yes the fall of angels and lucifer (or Lucifers fall) is revealed throughout the OT.
      Its a familiar topic and I would have to re-research my claims or find my old notes but I believe in this revelation.
      What do you think Menno?

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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      I don't believe in the 24 hour day because there was no sun to measure time, this leaves me to believe the "gap theory" so to speak, and yes the fall of angels and lucifer (or Lucifers fall) is revealed throughout the OT.
      Its a familiar topic and I would have to re-research my claims or find my old notes but I believe in this revelation.
      What do you think Menno?
      I don't have an answer, which is one reason I put it in speculative theology.
      We know that Lucifer was serving before the throne of God far before God created humans. We don't know if God created the spirits before he created the heavens and the earth, but the Bible says "In the beginning" which leads me to think this is when God created time. Therefore, it seems to me that in the beginning of time, Lucifer and the other spirits were created. This would be somewhere in day 1.
      I don't think God has set out to trick us by having our universe appear billions of years old when it's less than 7000, so I think the universe is billions of years old. Thus...I don't think the days in Genesis were 24 hour days.
      (I did have a young earth person, this morning in church, tell me in no uncertain terms that it had to be 24 hours. It was fun...)

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      Interesting question. Most of what I've been finding has been speculative ("verse 'X' may have meant this, or that, but it may have been about Angels or the heavens, but we don't know") kind of thing
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I don't have an answer, which is one reason I put it in speculative theology.
      We know that Lucifer was serving before the throne of God far before God created humans. We don't know if God created the spirits before he created the heavens and the earth, but the Bible says "In the beginning" which leads me to think this is when God created time. Therefore, it seems to me that in the beginning of time, Lucifer and the other spirits were created. This would be somewhere in day 1.
      I don't think God has set out to trick us by having our universe appear billions of years old when it's less than 7000, so I think the universe is billions of years old. Thus...I don't think the days in Genesis were 24 hour days.
      (I did have a young earth person, this morning in church, tell me in no uncertain terms that it had to be 24 hours. It was fun...)
      I used to be like that, "just accept it because God can make anything possible" and indeed he can! -but we can also understand some of these things too.. or at least discuss it respectfully.
      To begin with I would like to introduce my favorite bible study instructor Les (for those who never heard of him)... in this video he teaches gap theory.

      Edit: fixed video
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 07-02-2018 at 03:28 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      Interesting question. Most of what I've been finding has been speculative ("verse 'X' may have meant this, or that, but it may have been about Angels or the heavens, but we don't know") kind of thing
      Right. Where's Josiah to tell us it's a "mystery" cause we'd agree!
      The entire aspect of the messengers (angels) of God and the rebellion of Lucifer is something that is alluded to, but not detailed. It's like reading Tolkiens history of the races before the Fellowship of the Ring...it's left to the imagination. Like end times prophesy, I don't spend much time dwelling on it. But, I figured I would toss it out here to see what others felt. Heck....maybe even bobthebuilder will have an interesting answer...

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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      I used to be like that, "just accept it because God can make anything possible" and indeed he can! -but we can also understand some of these things too.. or at least discuss it respectfully.
      To begin with I would like to introduce my favorite bible study instructor Les (for those who never heard of him)... in this video he teaches gap theory.
      Anyone with Les' last name deserves some respect!
      I may have listened to him once before.
      In the Mennonite community we would sometimes have a Freasen-Dick wedding...

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Anyone with Les' last name deserves some respect!
      I may have listened to him once before.
      In the Mennonite community we would sometimes have a Freasen-Dick wedding...
      He has nearly 20 years of 30 minute videos and I made an edit in my first post, im not sure if this is the gap theory video but I know its either this video or the one before or the one after because it has to do with the first couple of chapters of Genesis, I will update asap im currently pressed for time.

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      God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. Our present conception of Satan was completed in the lurid medieval imagination by people like the Italian poet Dante. It took well over a thousand years for mankind to invent Satan.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JRT View Post
      God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. Our present conception of Satan was completed in the lurid medieval imagination by people like the Italian poet Dante. It took well over a thousand years for mankind to invent Satan.
      So...when Jesus said to Peter "Get behind me Satan", he was saying "get behind me Babylonian King?"
      When the Bible records that Satan came to tempt Jesus...it was really a Babylonian King?
      In your view Satan is a myth made up by men? ...Alright then...

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