Election

Albion · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
...or...God knows exactly whom he has elected, so enjoy life and live in God's glorious and amazing grace. [emoji56]

Of course GOD knows, but the question was about the person gifted by Him with saving Faith.

And the point there is that no one knows his destiny for certain--not believers in Election, but also not those who believe the opposite, i. e. those who believe that Man can save himself by trying to be good enough to win God's favor. Catholics never ever think that when they die, the best that they can hope for is that the next stop will be Purgatory--not Heaven but Purgatory which is like Hell. However that is exactly what their church teaches will happen to those whom God intends to save! The faithful Catholic churchgoer still doesn't want to think it will happen to him.

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

Albion said:
Of course GOD knows, but the question was about the person gifted by Him with saving Faith.

And the point there is that no one knows his destiny for certain--not believers in Election, but also not those who believe the opposite, i. e. those who believe that Man can save himself by trying to be good enough to win God's favor. Catholics never ever think that when they die, the best that they can hope for is that the next stop will be Purgatory--not Heaven but Purgatory which is like Hell. However that is exactly what their church teaches will happen to those whom God intends to save! The faithful Catholic churchgoer still doesn't want to think it will happen to him.

The problem here is that your point is all man-centered.
Why do I care what is in it for me? Why not just bask in God's goodness and His glory? The joy of glorifying God and trusting His word to be true is enough. Jesus told us not to worry and to trust Him. Why would you do the opposite?
Just rest in Christ. God has it all worked out. I have a plaque on the wall that reads: "Don't worry about tomorrow, God is already there."

Albion · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
The problem here is that your point is all man-centered.

Of course it is. THAT was what was asked about--man thinking he is saved or not. Had the question been different, I am sure the answers would have been different, too.

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

Albion said:
Of course it is. THAT was what was asked about--man thinking he is saved or not. Had the question been different, I am sure the answers would have been different, too.

Who cares what man thinks? It ain't gonna change what God has chosen. We live by faith. Since God is the one who gifts us faith, I rest in His promise.
If somehow I was wrong...so what...I still lived life to the full.

Albion · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Who cares what man thinks?

Apparently, you are one who does not. However that was the question...and I replied to the question.

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

Albion said:
Apparently, you are one who does not. However that was the question...and I replied to the question.

Who asked "the question"? This whole thread is because some folks get their undies knotted up with some personal misconception regarding their own label of "double-predestination."

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Arsenios said:

I asked you how YOU know...

I explained. Perhaps there is a reason you are confused?
I live by the faith God has gifted to me. Since God is the one who elects, I rest in the blessed knowledge that God knows my position in Christ. I will live in the amazing joy that God is in complete and Sovereign control. It is a fools task to worry about things that are out of your control. Either God is true or not. I believe God is true and thus rest in my position. If that is somehow wrong, then it was meant to be. So goes the life of a Christian who can wholly trust God.

Click to expand...

Thank-you Menno...

May God continue to bless you richly in your walk...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Arsenios said:

Perhaps there is a reason you are confused?

Click to expand...

Indeed there is -
You see, we live in a world of Good and evil, and we are its cause, because we are born in Adam...
It simply did not occur to me that life is not a struggle - Both worldly and spiritual...
I work to earn my daily bread - I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth...
And in the unseen warfare against evil powers and principalities in high places...
In this realm of the Spirit...
I struggle against the evil I find there, and do the good I manage by God's Grace to do...
It did not occur to me that I could be a bystander indifferent to the plight of those afflicted by evils...
It did not occur to me that I could encounter God and take a vacation from doing good...
It did not occur to me that I could take a vacation from opposing evil...
That I could just sit on the sidelines because I was God's little preferred pet...
Because God saved me and did not save the next guy just as undeserving as me...
It did not occur to me that any Christian even COULD think this way...
The mature Christians I know are heroes of the Faith...
They are like those Paul writes of in Hebrews 11...
"Of whom the world is not worthy..."

So please forgive me my confusion...
It simply did not occur to me...
That someone could preach doing nothing...
And then boast of how Christian they are...
Because they do nothing...
And God does everything...
I just did not conceive, you see...
A do-nothing Christian...

So I am in your debt...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

Albion said:
Catholics never ever think that when they die,
the best that they can hope for
is that the next stop will be Purgatory--which is like Hell.
However that is exactly what their church teaches
will happen to those whom God intends to save!

Yikes!!!

MC - This sounds true!

What a prognostication!

I guess you could say that the good news is that it is temporary and not eternal...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Who cares what man thinks? It ain't gonna change what God has chosen. We live by faith. Since God is the one who gifts us faith, I rest in His promise.
If somehow I was wrong...so what...I still lived life to the full.

Here - Have a beer and the remote...
I will order up some pizza...
Delivered...
Can I get you a foot rest?
Who's playing this afternoon?

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Who asked "the question"?

I asked the question and you answered it -
God saved you through no fault of your own...
And you eat, drink and make merry...

If somehow I was wrong...so what...I still lived life to the full.

So you are covered both ways...

Here, have another beer...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
Here - Have a beer and the remote...
I will order up some pizza...
Delivered...
Can I get you a foot rest?
Who's playing this afternoon?

Arsenios

You, brother Arsenios, are making me chuckle and that is not fair, this is supposed to be a most serious enquiry into election, or so the first post appears to indicate.

:no:

:studying::work:

:smirk:

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
MennoSota said:

Indeed there is -
You see, we live in a world of Good and evil, and we are its cause, because we are born in Adam...
It simply did not occur to me that life is not a struggle - Both worldly and spiritual...
I work to earn my daily bread - I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth...
And in the unseen warfare against evil powers and principalities in high places...
In this realm of the Spirit...
I struggle against the evil I find there, and do the good I manage by God's Grace to do...
It did not occur to me that I could be a bystander indifferent to the plight of those afflicted by evils...
It did not occur to me that I could encounter God and take a vacation from doing good...
It did not occur to me that I could take a vacation from opposing evil...
That I could just sit on the sidelines because I was God's little preferred pet...
Because God saved me and did not save the next guy just as undeserving as me...
It did not occur to me that any Christian even COULD think this way...
The mature Christians I know are heroes of the Faith...
They are like those Paul writes of in Hebrews 11...
"Of whom the world is not worthy..."

So please forgive me my confusion...
It simply did not occur to me...
That someone could preach doing nothing...
And then boast of how Christian they are...
Because they do nothing...
And God does everything...
I just did not conceive, you see...
A do-nothing Christian...

So I am in your debt...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

Click to expand...

You act as though God doesn't guide our path and somehow we have to forge our own. Can we not trust God to direct us according to His Sovereign will?
Rest. Let God carry the burden and remove it at the cross. No worries. God will provide.
Enjoy! Even the deep valleys are by God's ordination.
Trust. God has this in control. You don't.
Peace. God gives peace, even in the midst of the storm. God will bring us home to his mansion exactly at his bidding. This world is not our home. We are exiles in this foreign land. We are ambassadors of reconciliation. It's all good.
Joy!

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
I asked the question and you answered it -
God saved you through no fault of your own...
And you eat, drink and make merry...

So you are covered both ways...

Here, have another beer...

Arsenios

I'm sure I will. And I will drink it to the glory of God. What joy!

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
You act as though God doesn't guide our path and somehow we have to forge our own.

God both guides his people on the right path and they find their own paths too. That ought not to be a surprise to anybody. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke about it. Do you remember the broad and very spacious road and the other road that was narrow and difficult? Those are paths are they not? One that leads to life and the other to destruction? Is it not open to people to choose one or another? And isn't the story in The Pilgrim's Progress inclusive of a passage or two about a path that some wander off and need to be directed back to the right way? I am sure it does have such a passage. I am confident that you will find it if you look.

Can we not trust God to direct us according to His Sovereign will?
Rest. Let God carry the burden and remove it at the cross. No worries. God will provide.
Enjoy! Even the deep valleys are by God's ordination.
Trust. God has this in control. You don't.
Peace. God gives peace, even in the midst of the storm. God will bring us home to his mansion exactly at his bidding. This world is not our home. We are exiles in this foreign land. We are ambassadors of reconciliation. It's all good.
Joy!

Arsenios · Jul 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
Here, have another beer!

MennoSota said:
I will drink it to the glory of God.

:240:

A.

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
MennoSota said:

God both guides his people on the right path and they find their own paths too.

Click to expand...

Nope
Humans can only go down the path if God, by his ordinance, says yes.
I refer you, once again, to Balaam. God would NOT say yes to Balaam cursing Israel. God stopped Balaam at all turns...forcing Balaam to do only God's will.

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Nope
Humans can only go down the path if God, by his ordinance, says yes.
I refer you, once again, to Balaam. God would NOT say yes to Balaam cursing Israel. God stopped Balaam at all turns...forcing Balaam to do only God's will.

God both guides his people on the right path and they find their own paths too. That ought not to be a surprise to you. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke about it. Do you remember the broad and very spacious road and the other road that was narrow and difficult? Those are paths are they not? One that leads to life and the other to destruction? Is it not open to people to choose one or another?

Isn't the story in The Pilgrim's Progress inclusive of a passage or two about a path that some wander off and need to be directed back to the right way? I am sure it does have such a passage. I am confident that you will find it if you look.

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will ﬁnd; knock, and the door will be opened. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; whoever seeks, ﬁnds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Would any of you give a stone to your son, when he asks for bread? 10 Or give him a snake, when he asks for a ﬁsh? 11 However bad you may be, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So, do to others whatever you would that others do to you: there, you have the law and the prophets. • 13 Enter through the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the road, that leads to destruction, and many go that way. 14 How narrow is the gate that leads to life; and how rough, the road; few there are, who ﬁnd it.

MennoSota · Jul 5, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
God both guides his people on the right path and they find their own paths too. That ought not to be a surprise to you. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke about it. Do you remember the broad and very spacious road and the other road that was narrow and difficult? Those are paths are they not? One that leads to life and the other to destruction? Is it not open to people to choose one or another?

Isn't the story in The Pilgrim's Progress inclusive of a passage or two about a path that some wander off and need to be directed back to the right way? I am sure it does have such a passage. I am confident that you will find it if you look.

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will ﬁnd; knock, and the door will be opened. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; whoever seeks, ﬁnds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Would any of you give a stone to your son, when he asks for bread? 10 Or give him a snake, when he asks for a ﬁsh? 11 However bad you may be, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So, do to others whatever you would that others do to you: there, you have the law and the prophets. • 13 Enter through the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the road, that leads to destruction, and many go that way. 14 How narrow is the gate that leads to life; and how rough, the road; few there are, who ﬁnd it.

Read about Balaam and get back to us.
God's ordination is always taking precedence. Nothing happens without God's agreement...even the bad stuff.

MoreCoffee · Jul 5, 2018

“faith alone” is by no means a sign that one is among the elect of God. Christians cannot have, on earth, certitude of their predestination without a special revelation from God. Aside from this special revelation no man can know if he will persevere in faith and good works to the end. Nevertheless there are signs of predestination which give a kind of moral certitude that one will persevere. Some of the signs that can help to provide this kind of certainty are:

a good life;
the testimony of a good conscience;
patience in adversities for love of God;
relish for the light and God the Word and the holy scriptures - word of God;
mercy toward those who suffer;
love of enemies;
humility

Belief in predestination is not an academic exercise it is an aid to the examination of conscience. For example:

Do I patiently bear through difficulties?
Do I maintain a love for Jesus Christ -Word of God incarnate - and the holy scriptures - the word of God written?
Do I study the holy scriptures daily?
Do I order my life according to the teaching in the holy scriptures?
Do I love the poor and try to assist them?
Am I praying for and blessing those who hate me?

Do not ask yourself, “Am I predestined?” because nobody can know this without a special revelation. Rather, ask yourself, “Do I resemble the character of the predestined? Am I a man of the beatitudes that the Lord Jesus Christ presented in the sermon on the mount?”

Saint Paul wrote “For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.” Romans 8:29. Christians are predestined to not merely be in Heaven, but to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we do not resemble the Beatitudes of Christ from the Sermon on the Mount, we’re not being conformed to Christ. We’re not predestined.

Election

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