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  • Page 19 of 20 FirstFirst ... 917181920 LastLast
    Results 181 to 190 of 193

    Christian Theology - Thread: Election

    1. #181
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      I don’t think that is correct. Paul says otherwise when writing to Timothy
      This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
      1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB


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      One would think that ambassadors of reconciliation would have part in reconsiling those not yet brought to the knowledge or understanding of GOD.



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    2. #182
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      This has been addressed elsewhere. The "all" is not universal. Other translations will use the word "many."
      If God desired all, universal, to be saved...they would be. God is not hog tied by man's will and thus incapable of acting.
      I think you meant desires as opposed to desired. The dead will be raised up....all of them.

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    3. #183
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I went through 2 Peter 3 and showed very, very clearly that Peter cannot be using a universal "all." Read the entire passage from verse 1. The passage is about judgment. People are completely taking Peter out of context when they claim universalism from 2 Peter 3:9.
      So all won't be judged to you! Interesting.

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    4. #184
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      2peter 3:1 Dearly beloved, this is the second letter I write to you. In both of them, I have intended to remind you of sound doctrine. 2 Do not forget the words of the holy prophets, and the teaching of our Lord and Saviour, as you heard it, through his apostles. 3 Remember, first of all, that, in the last days, scoffers will appear, their mockery serving their evil desires. 4 And they will say, “What has become of his promised coming? Since our fathers in faith died, everything still goes on, as it was from the beginning of the world.” 5 Indeed, they deliberately ignore, that, in the beginning, the heavens existed first, and earth appeared from the water, taking its form by the word of God. 6 By the same word of God, this world perished in the Flood. 7 Likewise, the word of God maintains the present heavens and earth, until their destruction, by fire; they are kept for the day of judgement, when the godless will be destroyed. 8 Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather, he gives you time, because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion. 10 The Day of the Lord is to come like a thief. Then, the heavens will dissolve with a great noise; the elements will melt away by fire, and the earth, with all that is on it, will be burned up. 11 Since all things are to vanish, how holy and religious your way of life must be, 12 as you wait for the day of God, and long for its coming, when the heavens will dissolve in fire, and the elements melt away in the heat. 13 We wait for a new heaven and a new earth, in which justice reigns, according to God’s promise. 14 Therefore, beloved, as you wait in expectation of this, strive, that God may find you rooted in peace, without blemish or fault. 15 And consider, that God’s patience is for our salvation, as our beloved brother, Paul, wrote to you, with the wisdom given him. 16 He speaks of these things in all his letters. There are, however, some points in them that are difficult to understand, which people, who are ignorant, and immature in their faith, twist, as they do with the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 So then, dearly beloved, as you have been warned, be careful, lest those people who have gone astray, deceive you, in turn, and drag you along, making you stumble, and finally fall away. 18 Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: to him be glory, now, and to the day of eternity. Amen.

      Well, there's the chapter so what is supposed to be in it that is specifically about election?
      The better question is what is there that is supposed to be free-will.
      Start at 2 Peter 1:1 and go from there. To whom is Peter writing?

    5. #185
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      What is the justification for that claim?

      The passage that refers to God's foreknowledge in relation to election is
      Romans 11:1-10 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life. 4 But what is God's response to him? I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal. 5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day. 9 And David says: Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever.
      The Complete Word Study Dictionary say that the word translated as foreknew is defined as follows
      προγινώσκω
      proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognise beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.
      (I) Used of mere prescience, to know before (Act 26:5; 2Pe 3:17).
      (II) Used of God's eternal counsel it includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favourable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favourably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.
      (A) Used of persons, to foreknow with approbation, to fore-approve or make a previous choice of, as special people (Rom 8:29; Rom 11:2).
      (B) Used of events, to previously decide or plan, to foreknow for God is to foreordain 1Pe 1:19-20 presents Christ as the "Lamb of God foreknown from the foundation of the world" (a.t.). He is said to be foreknown because God had planned and determined in His eternal counsel to provide His Son as a sacrifice for His people. Certainly more is meant than that God knew ahead of time that Christ would so come and die. God's foreknowledge is given here as the cause for His Son's sacrifice-because He planned and decreed it.
      (C) In Rom 8:29, in relation to believers, proginṓskō occurs with the verb proṓrise, aor. act. indic. of proorízō (G4309), to predestine. Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasises the exercise of God's wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God's will in regard to it. What He has decreed is what He has decided. This foreknowledge and foreordination in the Scripture are always unto salvation and not unto perdition. Therefore, it should be said that the Lord never foreordains someone to be lost. Rather, He foreordains unto salvation those whom He specially considered and chose in eternity past (see Mat 7:23; Joh 10:14; Rom 11:2; 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 2Ti 2:19; Sept.: Hos 13:5; Amo 3:2). Any thought of the lost being appointed or ordained unto condemnation should be understood as an act of passing over in which the lost are permitted to suffer the consequences of their choice of sin (1Pe 2:8). The salvation of every believer is known and determined in the mind of God before its realisation in time. Thus, proginṓskō corresponds with the idea of having been chosen (eklégomai [G1586], to choose) before the foundation of the world mentioned in Eph 1:4 and logically precedes the action indicated by proorízō. Proginṓskō essentially entails a gracious self- determining on God's part from eternity to extend fellowship with Himself to undeserving sinners (Rom 8:29).
      Deriv.: prógnōsis (G4268), foreknowledge.
      Syn.: problépō (G4265), to look out beforehand, to supply in advance, foresee; proeídō (G4275) and prooráō (G4308), to foresee; proetoimázō (G4282), to ordain or prepare before; prokuróō (G4300), to confirm or ratify before; prolégō (G4302), to tell or say beforehand; promeletáō (G4304), to premeditate; promerimnáō (G4305), to take thought or care beforehand; pronoéō (G4306), to know or consider in advance; proorízō (G4309), to set limits in advance, ordain beforehand, predestinate.
      The definition does not support your claim very well. The main thought in the word is to know beforehand which is what brother psalms 91 said. Proginosko is the source of English language words like prognostication and prognosticate.
      Another topic, but MC you really need to focus on this verse...
      6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    6. #186
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Another topic, but MC you really need to focus on this verse...
      6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
      As you say another topic
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #187
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #6:
      I am saying:
      21*For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22*For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23*But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:21-23
      This passage points out the process.
      1) All (universal) die in Adam. (Man's guilt)
      2) All (the elect) are made alive in Christ.
      How do we know it's the elect? Verse 23 says "all those who belong to Christ." Paul clarifies who the "all" are. We also see that Paul uses the same concept of being made alive in Ephesians 2:4-5. So, we know Paul's second use of the word "all" is not universal, but refers to the elect.
      I suspect that the author of Post #6 has overlooked a couple of things.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The first is: Why do Christians need a resurrection?

      Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

      Who do we believe? Those who tell us that dead Christians are already in Heaven, or the Apostle Paul who said they’re not?

      1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
      13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
      14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


      ================================================== ============================================

      The second is:

      Either Paul is stating that only the elect are made alive, or he is making a general statement – like for like – apples and apples, oranges and oranges – not apples and oranges – and then homing in on its application to the Church.

      Which is it? Will all be made alive, or only the elect?

      What does the Athanasian Creed tell us? Does it tell us that all will rise from the dead?

      ...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

      Once again, who are we to believe?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    8. #188
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      As you say another topic
      I am focused, that's how I knew it was another topic where you were wrong.

    9. #189
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #6:


      I suspect that the author of Post #6 has overlooked a couple of things.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The first is: Why do Christians need a resurrection?

      Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

      Who do we believe? Those who tell us that dead Christians are already in Heaven, or the Apostle Paul who said they’re not?

      1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
      13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
      14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
      15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
      17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
      18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


      ================================================== ============================================

      The second is:

      Either Paul is stating that only the elect are made alive, or he is making a general statement – like for like – apples and apples, oranges and oranges – not apples and oranges – and then homing in on its application to the Church.

      Which is it? Will all be made alive, or only the elect?

      What does the Athanasian Creed tell us? Does it tell us that all will rise from the dead?

      ...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

      Once again, who are we to believe?


      ================================================== ============================================
      You confuse everyone being raised to judgment with the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual.
      Why should I be concerned with any creed that is not found in scripture? Or is that meant specifically for mr ccc?

    10. #190
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23 was quoted. The first “all” was said to refer to all people, but the second “all” was said to refer to only the “elect” (meaning only "all those who belong to Christ”).

      I asked two things about that.

      ================================================== ============================================

      1. The first was: Why do Christians need a resurrection? Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

      I then pointed out that the apostle Paul stipulated that there was no reuniting of believers after death (and therefore no conscious existence after death) until the resurrection. I tendered Paul’s own words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

      I asked who we should believe (i.e. a clear statement from an inspired apostle – (one of several reported together in another Post) – or a repetition of a doctrine formulated in post-Nicene times).

      The question, like related questions asked in other places in the past, remains unanswered.

      ================================================== ============================================

      2. The second was: Should we believe the Athanasian Creed which says “...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.”?

      The response was (Post #189): You confuse everyone being raised to judgment with the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual.
      Why should I be concerned with any creed that is not found in scripture? Or is that meant specifically for mr ccc?


      We have just seen a confirmation in writing that a general resurrection of all people will take place. (As Acts 24:15 states.)

      But if “the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual”, are not included in the “everyone being raised to judgment”, then who are the “just”, and what is their fate?
      Last edited by Pedrito; 07-12-2018 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Added Post number
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