Election

popsthebuilder

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I don’t think that is correct. Paul says otherwise when writing to Timothy
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB


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One would think that ambassadors of reconciliation would have part in reconsiling those not yet brought to the knowledge or understanding of GOD.



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popsthebuilder

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This has been addressed elsewhere. The "all" is not universal. Other translations will use the word "many."
If God desired all, universal, to be saved...they would be. God is not hog tied by man's will and thus incapable of acting.
I think you meant desires as opposed to desired. The dead will be raised up....all of them.

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popsthebuilder

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I went through 2 Peter 3 and showed very, very clearly that Peter cannot be using a universal "all." Read the entire passage from verse 1. The passage is about judgment. People are completely taking Peter out of context when they claim universalism from 2 Peter 3:9.
So all won't be judged to you! Interesting.

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MennoSota

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2peter 3:1 Dearly beloved, this is the second letter I write to you. In both of them, I have intended to remind you of sound doctrine. 2 Do not forget the words of the holy prophets, and the teaching of our Lord and Saviour, as you heard it, through his apostles. 3 Remember, first of all, that, in the last days, scoffers will appear, their mockery serving their evil desires. 4 And they will say, “What has become of his promised coming? Since our fathers in faith died, everything still goes on, as it was from the beginning of the world.” 5 Indeed, they deliberately ignore, that, in the beginning, the heavens existed first, and earth appeared from the water, taking its form by the word of God. 6 By the same word of God, this world perished in the Flood. 7 Likewise, the word of God maintains the present heavens and earth, until their destruction, by fire; they are kept for the day of judgement, when the godless will be destroyed. 8 Do not forget, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay in fulfilling his promise, though some speak of delay; rather, he gives you time, because he does not want anyone to perish, but that all may come to conversion. 10 The Day of the Lord is to come like a thief. Then, the heavens will dissolve with a great noise; the elements will melt away by fire, and the earth, with all that is on it, will be burned up. 11 Since all things are to vanish, how holy and religious your way of life must be, 12 as you wait for the day of God, and long for its coming, when the heavens will dissolve in fire, and the elements melt away in the heat. 13 We wait for a new heaven and a new earth, in which justice reigns, according to God’s promise. 14 Therefore, beloved, as you wait in expectation of this, strive, that God may find you rooted in peace, without blemish or fault. 15 And consider, that God’s patience is for our salvation, as our beloved brother, Paul, wrote to you, with the wisdom given him. 16 He speaks of these things in all his letters. There are, however, some points in them that are difficult to understand, which people, who are ignorant, and immature in their faith, twist, as they do with the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 So then, dearly beloved, as you have been warned, be careful, lest those people who have gone astray, deceive you, in turn, and drag you along, making you stumble, and finally fall away. 18 Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: to him be glory, now, and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Well, there's the chapter so what is supposed to be in it that is specifically about election?
The better question is what is there that is supposed to be free-will.
Start at 2 Peter 1:1 and go from there. To whom is Peter writing?
 

MennoSota

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What is the justification for that claim?

The passage that refers to God's foreknowledge in relation to election is
Romans 11:1-10 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life. 4 But what is God's response to him? I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal. 5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day. 9 And David says: Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever.​
The Complete Word Study Dictionary say that the word translated as foreknew is defined as follows
προγινώσκω
proginṓskō; fut. prognṓsomai, 2d aor. proégnōn, from pró (G4253), before, and ginṓskō (G1097), to know. To perceive or recognise beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow.
(I) Used of mere prescience, to know before (Act 26:5; 2Pe 3:17).
(II) Used of God's eternal counsel it includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favourable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favourably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.
(A) Used of persons, to foreknow with approbation, to fore-approve or make a previous choice of, as special people (Rom 8:29; Rom 11:2).
(B) Used of events, to previously decide or plan, to foreknow for God is to foreordain 1Pe 1:19-20 presents Christ as the "Lamb of God foreknown from the foundation of the world" (a.t.). He is said to be foreknown because God had planned and determined in His eternal counsel to provide His Son as a sacrifice for His people. Certainly more is meant than that God knew ahead of time that Christ would so come and die. God's foreknowledge is given here as the cause for His Son's sacrifice-because He planned and decreed it.
(C) In Rom 8:29, in relation to believers, proginṓskō occurs with the verb proṓrise, aor. act. indic. of proorízō (G4309), to predestine. Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasises the exercise of God's wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God's will in regard to it. What He has decreed is what He has decided. This foreknowledge and foreordination in the Scripture are always unto salvation and not unto perdition. Therefore, it should be said that the Lord never foreordains someone to be lost. Rather, He foreordains unto salvation those whom He specially considered and chose in eternity past (see Mat 7:23; Joh 10:14; Rom 11:2; 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 2Ti 2:19; Sept.: Hos 13:5; Amo 3:2). Any thought of the lost being appointed or ordained unto condemnation should be understood as an act of passing over in which the lost are permitted to suffer the consequences of their choice of sin (1Pe 2:8). The salvation of every believer is known and determined in the mind of God before its realisation in time. Thus, proginṓskō corresponds with the idea of having been chosen (eklégomai [G1586], to choose) before the foundation of the world mentioned in Eph 1:4 and logically precedes the action indicated by proorízō. Proginṓskō essentially entails a gracious self- determining on God's part from eternity to extend fellowship with Himself to undeserving sinners (Rom 8:29).
Deriv.: prógnōsis (G4268), foreknowledge.
Syn.: problépō (G4265), to look out beforehand, to supply in advance, foresee; proeídō (G4275) and prooráō (G4308), to foresee; proetoimázō (G4282), to ordain or prepare before; prokuróō (G4300), to confirm or ratify before; prolégō (G4302), to tell or say beforehand; promeletáō (G4304), to premeditate; promerimnáō (G4305), to take thought or care beforehand; pronoéō (G4306), to know or consider in advance; proorízō (G4309), to set limits in advance, ordain beforehand, predestinate.​
The definition does not support your claim very well. The main thought in the word is to know beforehand which is what brother psalms 91 said. Proginosko is the source of English language words like prognostication and prognosticate.
Another topic, but MC you really need to focus on this verse...
6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [emoji41]
 

MoreCoffee

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Another topic, but MC you really need to focus on this verse...
6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. [emoji41]

As you say another topic :focus:
 

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==============================================================================================

Post #6:
I am saying:
21*For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22*For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23*But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:21-23
This passage points out the process.
1) All (universal) die in Adam. (Man's guilt)
2) All (the elect) are made alive in Christ.
How do we know it's the elect? Verse 23 says "all those who belong to Christ." Paul clarifies who the "all" are. We also see that Paul uses the same concept of being made alive in Ephesians 2:4-5. So, we know Paul's second use of the word "all" is not universal, but refers to the elect.

I suspect that the author of Post #6 has overlooked a couple of things.

==============================================================================================

The first is: Why do Christians need a resurrection?

Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

Who do we believe? Those who tell us that dead Christians are already in Heaven, or the Apostle Paul who said they’re not?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


==============================================================================================

The second is:

Either Paul is stating that only the elect are made alive, or he is making a general statement – like for like – apples and apples, oranges and oranges – not apples and oranges – and then homing in on its application to the Church.

Which is it? Will all be made alive, or only the elect?

What does the Athanasian Creed tell us? Does it tell us that all will rise from the dead?

...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Once again, who are we to believe?


==============================================================================================
 

MennoSota

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MennoSota

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==============================================================================================

Post #6:


I suspect that the author of Post #6 has overlooked a couple of things.

==============================================================================================

The first is: Why do Christians need a resurrection?

Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

Who do we believe? Those who tell us that dead Christians are already in Heaven, or the Apostle Paul who said they’re not?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


==============================================================================================

The second is:

Either Paul is stating that only the elect are made alive, or he is making a general statement – like for like – apples and apples, oranges and oranges – not apples and oranges – and then homing in on its application to the Church.

Which is it? Will all be made alive, or only the elect?

What does the Athanasian Creed tell us? Does it tell us that all will rise from the dead?

...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Once again, who are we to believe?


==============================================================================================

You confuse everyone being raised to judgment with the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual.
Why should I be concerned with any creed that is not found in scripture? Or is that meant specifically for mr ccc?
 

Pedrito

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==============================================================================================

In Post #6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23 was quoted. The first “all” was said to refer to all people, but the second “all” was said to refer to only the “elect” (meaning only "all those who belong to Christ”).

I asked two things about that.

==============================================================================================

1. The first was: Why do Christians need a resurrection? Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

I then pointed out that the apostle Paul stipulated that there was no reuniting of believers after death (and therefore no conscious existence after death) until the resurrection. I tendered Paul’s own words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I asked who we should believe (i.e. a clear statement from an inspired apostle – (one of several reported together in another Post) – or a repetition of a doctrine formulated in post-Nicene times).

The question, like related questions asked in other places in the past, remains unanswered.

==============================================================================================

2. The second was: Should we believe the Athanasian Creed which says “...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.”?

The response was (Post #189): You confuse everyone being raised to judgment with the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual.
Why should I be concerned with any creed that is not found in scripture? Or is that meant specifically for mr ccc?


We have just seen a confirmation in writing that a general resurrection of all people will take place. (As Acts 24:15 states.)

But if “the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual”, are not included in the “everyone being raised to judgment”, then who are the “just”, and what is their fate?
 
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MennoSota

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==============================================================================================

In Post #6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23 was quoted. The first “all” was said to refer to all people, but the second “all” was said to refer to only the “elect” (meaning only "all those who belong to Christ”).

I asked two things about that.

==============================================================================================

1. The first was: Why do Christians need a resurrection? Why is it said to be so important? Aren’t they already in Heaven having a wonderful time with God and the ascended Jesus? What need do they have for bodies? What advantage will having bodies give them? What are they missing out on now?

I then pointed out that the apostle Paul stipulated that there was no reuniting of believers after death (and therefore no conscious existence after death) until the resurrection. I tendered Paul’s own words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I asked who we should believe (i.e. a clear statement from an inspired apostle – (one of several reported together in another Post) – or a repetition of a doctrine formulated in post-Nicene times).

The question, like related questions asked in other places in the past, remains unanswered.

==============================================================================================

2. The second was: Should we believe the Athanasian Creed which says “...He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.”?

The response was (Post #189): You confuse everyone being raised to judgment with the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual.
Why should I be concerned with any creed that is not found in scripture? Or is that meant specifically for mr ccc?


We have just seen a confirmation in writing that a general resurrection of all people will take place. (As Acts 24:15 states.)

But if “the elect for whom Christ's atonement is effectual”, are not included in the “everyone being raised to judgment”, then who are the “just”, and what is their fate?
I don't follow your thought at all.
 

Josiah

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Single Predestination:

Theoretically there are four possible kinds of consistent single predestination

(1) Universal predestination to election (God elects all)
(2) universal predestination to reprobation (God chooses all for damnation)
(3) particular predestination to election (God elects some with a chance for the non-elect to earn salvation)
(4) particular predestination to reprobation (God chooses some for damnation with a chance for the rest to earn salvation)


(5) Election of the saved (God chooses some for salvation).

#5 is the biblical position. PURE Gospel.
 

Albion

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It seems that...

(5) would then be (3) but with a correction to the explanation given in parentheses by atpollard.

God elects some with only a theoretical chance for the non-elect to earn salvation (by keeping the Law perfectly).
 

Josiah

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It seems that...

(5) would then be (3) but with a correction to the explanation given in parentheses by atpollard.

God elects some with only a theoretical chance for the non-elect to earn salvation (by keeping the Law perfectly).


Yup. Position #5 is #3 without a Calvinist appointing self to explain it to God. It just affirms what God has declared (some feel no need to explain things to God or to correct Him).
 

Arsenios

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Where is the exile, the saint, who prays for the peace of the city in which they reside?
Where is that Christian recognition that we are exiles in a foreign land,
not dogged patriots of a worldly region ruled by a government of men?

You are tilting dangerously toward the Eastern Orthodox phronema...
We pray for the world that is not our home...
For peaceful times...
For an abundance of the fruits of the earth...
For the rulers of the earth...
For our President and the Armed Forces...
For those who love us...
For those who hate us...

In all these, as they are chanted forth by the Clergy...
The Faithful sing forth the response: "Lord have Mercy..."

Every day...
Every Service...
More than once in most Services...

It is the Church in the Work of Prayer...
It is the Church as a Communion of Prayer...
For 2000 years now, and counting...

But who's counting?

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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You are tilting dangerously toward the Eastern Orthodox phronema...
We pray for the world that is not our home...
For peaceful times...
For an abundance of the fruits of the earth...
For the rulers of the earth...
For our President and the Armed Forces...
For those who love us...
For those who hate us...

In all these, as they are chanted forth by the Clergy...
The Faithful sing forth the response: "Lord have Mercy..."

Every day...
Every Service...
More than once in most Services...

It is the Church in the Work of Prayer...
It is the Church as a Communion of Prayer...
For 2000 years now, and counting...

But who's counting?

Arsenios
How does your quoting me from a different topic thread relate to election?
 

Arsenios

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How does your quoting me from a different topic thread relate to election?

An obliviously erroneous placement of a post...

They shoot horses, don't they?

Arsenios
 

Pedrito

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==============================================================================================

Post #28 – popsthebuilder:
Double predestination is wholly and utterly evil; GOD is wholly just and merciful.

I simply want an individual to reconcile these two things scripturally....though they cannot.

popsthebuilder has highlighted one of the significant dichotomies (conflicts) that plague the “Gospels” of post-apostolic Christendom. The original apostolic Gospel had no such contrasts. The concepts on which the two types of Gospels are based, are totally different. The Apostolic Gospel does not consist of post-apostolic beliefs (devised by humans) being retrofitted into Scripture like square pegs into round holes.

==============================================================================================

If anyone takes the time to read the Holy Scriptures as they were written (the New Testament will do for a start), without the post-apostolic filters that we are conditioned to look through, a whole new perspective emerges. In the light of that whole new perspective, the interdenominational and intra-denominational squabbles that plague Christendom in our day, disappear like morning mist.

A person simply has to read each verse carefully, taking his or her time, and ask honestly:
- What does this verse actually say?
- What have we been told it means?
- What effect does it have on what I’ve been taught to believe, if it actually means what it says?

The same can be done for each related set of verses and for broader passages.

If any verse contains obvious illogicality (especially illogicality we have been conditioned to gloss over), look for clarification of its real meaning in nearby verses.

==============================================================================================

Keep a journal of the questions and troubling issues that are sure to arise.

Cross the questions and troubling issues off as they are individually resolved as you keep reading.

You’ll be amazed.

And you’ll come to know what counting the cost means.


==============================================================================================
 

MennoSota

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==============================================================================================

Post #28 – popsthebuilder:


popsthebuilder has highlighted one of the significant dichotomies (conflicts) that plague the “Gospels” of post-apostolic Christendom. The original apostolic Gospel had no such contrasts. The concepts on which the two types of Gospels are based, are totally different. The Apostolic Gospel does not consist of post-apostolic beliefs (devised by humans) being retrofitted into Scripture like square pegs into round holes.

==============================================================================================

If anyone takes the time to read the Holy Scriptures as they were written (the New Testament will do for a start), without the post-apostolic filters that we are conditioned to look through, a whole new perspective emerges. In the light of that whole new perspective, the interdenominational and intra-denominational squabbles that plague Christendom in our day, disappear like morning mist.

A person simply has to read each verse carefully, taking his or her time, and ask honestly:
- What does this verse actually say?
- What have we been told it means?
- What effect does it have on what I’ve been taught to believe, if it actually means what it says?

The same can be done for each related set of verses and for broader passages.

If any verse contains obvious illogicality (especially illogicality we have been conditioned to gloss over), look for clarification of its real meaning in nearby verses.

==============================================================================================

Keep a journal of the questions and troubling issues that are sure to arise.

Cross the questions and troubling issues off as they are individually resolved as you keep reading.

You’ll be amazed.

And you’ll come to know what counting the cost means.


==============================================================================================
You have a weird concept of apostolic/post apostolic that is unnecessary.
We have God's word. It is the same word that the Apostles had. We read God's word and see what God shares about election. This understanding of election is the same understanding the Apostles taught.
 

Pedrito

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==============================================================================================

In Post #191, Mennosota stated: I don't follow your thought at all.

That was in reply to my Post #187.

Let’s make it simple.

==============================================================================================

1. If Christians are now in Heaven with God and Jesus:
- Why do they need a resurrection?
- Why do they need bodies?
- What are they missing out on without them?

The apostle Paul, under divine inspiration, stipulated that there was no reuniting of believers after death (and therefore no conscious existence after death) until the resurrection. Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Therefore, people do need a resurrection – they need it because they are dead dead, not alive dead. They are not in Heaven yet.

==============================================================================================

2. Mennosota stated that the first “all” in 1 Corinthians 15:22 means everyone, but the second “all” refers only to believers.

Well, the Athanasian creed says everyone will be resurrected. Probably because Jesus said it in John 5:28,29. So did the apostle Paul in Acts 24:15.

==============================================================================================

Are those two concepts, whether or not the Reader wished to accept them, really that hard to understand?


==============================================================================================
 
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