Election

MoreCoffee · Jul 6, 2018

RichWh1 said:
So the Church is not the Elect Lady John wrote to I guess.
True or false?

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I presume you are referring to this passage

2John 1:1 The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Which is (in Greek)

2John 1:1 Ὁ πρεσβύτερος ἐκλεκτῇ κυρίᾳ καὶ τοῖς τέκνοις αὐτῆς, οὓς ἐγὼ ἀγαπῶ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ, καὶ οὐκ ἐγὼ μόνος ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἐγνωκότες τὴν ἀλήθειαν, 2 διὰ τὴν ἀλήθειαν τὴν μένουσαν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ μεθ’ ἡμῶν ἔσται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. 3 ἔσται μεθ’ ἡμῶν χάρις ἔλεος εἰρήνη παρὰ Θεοῦ Πατρός, καὶ παρὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ Πατρός, ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ ἀγάπῃ.

The word translated "to [the] chosen" is ἐκλεκτῇ (eklekte)

What is your point of interest here?

RichWh1 · Jul 6, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I presume you are referring to this passage

2John 1:1 The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Which is (in Greek)

2John 1:1 Ὁ πρεσβύτερος ἐκλεκτῇ κυρίᾳ καὶ τοῖς τέκνοις αὐτῆς, οὓς ἐγὼ ἀγαπῶ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ, καὶ οὐκ ἐγὼ μόνος ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἐγνωκότες τὴν ἀλήθειαν, 2 διὰ τὴν ἀλήθειαν τὴν μένουσαν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ μεθ’ ἡμῶν ἔσται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. 3 ἔσται μεθ’ ἡμῶν χάρις ἔλεος εἰρήνη παρὰ Θεοῦ Πατρός, καὶ παρὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ Πατρός, ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ ἀγάπῃ.
The word translated "to [the] chosen" is ἐκλεκτῇ (eklekte)

What is your point of interest here?

My point is whether it is or us not a reference to the church. That was the question I asked.

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Albion · Jul 6, 2018

Arsenios said:
Ascribing motives to RCC Doctrines with which one disagrees is counterproductive...

Arsenios

Many times that is so. But OTOH, my own disagreement is incidental to the history involved there, I was speaking to you instead of a Roman Catholic, and the motives are an integral part of the record.

MoreCoffee · Jul 6, 2018

RichWh1 said:
My point is whether it is or us not a reference to the church. That was the question I asked.

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I see, so you're not asking what the text says you want an opinion about what "the elect lady" means and specifically if it means "church"?

RichWh1 · Jul 6, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I see, so you're not asking what the text says you want an opinion about what "the elect lady" means and specifically if it means "church"?

Please learn to read properly. My question is not about a Greek word now!! It's about a reference as to whom the Elect Lady is or is not!!

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MoreCoffee · Jul 6, 2018

RichWh1 said:
Please learn to read properly. My question is not about a Greek word now!! It's about a reference as to whom the Elect Lady is or is not!!

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The text does not say and it really becomes a matter of opinion if "the elect lady" is an oblique reference to a local church or a direct reference to a specific lady. Commentators seem to be divided on the matter. It is not a very important point of theology as far as I can tell. It isn't going to help with making "elect" mean the same thing as "church" because "church" does not mean "elect" and that's been shown from the lexical evidence and from the etymological evidence too. But for the sake of argument you can assume that "the elect lady" is an oblique reference to "a local church" if you like. I don't see any harm in that.

Now I hope you'll pardon me for asking but why are you so rude to me?

MoreCoffee · Jul 6, 2018

Arsenios said:
I understood this Latin Doctrine (it is not an Orthodox one) of Purgatory as an after-death purging of whatever abides in him of sin in his soul, and that it does this purging by temporal punishment - the time needed varying according to the amound of purging needed according to each person's soul... It was, I thought, the basis for the selling of indulgences, whereby the Church could reduce the amount of time on one's loved one in this temporal after-death punishment contingent upon the giving of gifts to the Church... That is was an eggregious selling of heavenly Gifts for the sake of the unjust manna of money, and kicked off the Reformation...

The idea that purging of sin is by punishment is contrary to the Orthodox Catholic teaching going all the way back to the beginnings of the Faith...

I had simply never considered that one has, in its beliefs, the anticipation of temporal punishment of unknown time to look foreward to at one's repose... If I believed such a doctrine, I would look foreward to it eagerly, and perhaps live a much more penitent life...

The whole topic deserves its own thread, I should think...

Arsenios

I apologise for being so slow to respond to this post. I was distracted by another matter - one of lexical differences - but now that matter may be over and done with so I have returned to answer you my brother. I hope you were not inconvenienced by my delay.

Indulgences originated in the East, specifically in Jerusalem, Corinth, and Alexandria. They were letters of recommendation from imprisoned martyrs written to bishops on behalf of suppliants who brought gifts of food and, clothing, and whatever other material and spiritual aid they could to the martyr(s) in prison and who asked in return for a letter to testify to their sincere repentance for sins (including sins as serious as giving in to pressure to offer something to the genius of the emperor) and their willingness to testify for Christ even if it cost their life. Because of the way Roman officials dealt with the matter of persecuting Christians it was very unlikely that a repentant sinner who had sinned by offering to the emperor's genius would be arrested and martyred upon repenting and proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. But the church - through its bishops and priests - was inclined to impose fairly severe (by modern standards) penances on such sinners. In recorded cases the penitent were required to sit outside the door of the church for every mass/divine-liturgy held over a period of months and even years as a sign that their repentance was enduring and true. The letters obtained from imprisoned martyrs on behalf of such persons were received by the bishops responsible for such penances and acted upon by either releasing the penitent from the imposed penance or by reducing the term or the severity of the imposed penance.

In the holy scriptures 2Corinthians 2:5-11 may be a prototypical example of an indulgence insofar as it is a Bishop's appeal (in this case an Apostle's appeal) for mercy to a penitent sinner who was being excluded from full fellowship in the church in Corinth. "5 But if any hath caused sorrow, he hath caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I press not too heavily) to you all. 6 Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many; 7 so that contrariwise ye should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye are obedient in all things. 10 But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the presence of Christ; 11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

The idea of these letters was particularly poignant in the west, in Rome especially, where many generations of bishops and priests as well as lay people were martyred for their faith in the arenas of that city. Thus the tradition (not Tradition) was established on a wholesome foundation but with the possibility of later generations warping, bending, even perverting the practise until finally the accusations of Martin Luther against Johann Tetzel (a monk in the order of saint Dominic) were put forward in print in the "95 Theses" and other documents of the early sixteenth century.

Now I am wondering how these matters tie in with election. I can see a relationship between penance and election because repentance cannot be 'real' if it is merely intellectual. One cannot repent by praying "Lord forgive me for the theft I did" and still keep the goods stolen. There is a cost to discipleship as Christ taught, "24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. 28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:24-28)

Election is for the repentant who believe.

Arsenios · Jul 6, 2018

RichWh1 said:
What was the 'accept' vs ' except' supposed to prove?

That -kle- and -lek- are two different roots?

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 6, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I apologise for being so slow to respond to this post. I was distracted by another matter - one of lexical differences - but now that matter may be over and done with so I have returned to answer you my brother. I hope you were not inconvenienced by my delay.

Indulgences originated in the East, specifically in Jerusalem, Corinth, and Alexandria. They were letters of recommendation from imprisoned martyrs written to bishops on behalf of suppliants who brought gifts of food and, clothing, and whatever other material and spiritual aide they could to the martyr(s) in prison and who asked in return for a letter to testify to their sincere repentance for sins (including sins as serious as giving in to pressure to offer something to the genius of the emperor) and their willingness to testify for Christ even if it cost their life. Because of the way Roman officials dealt with the matter of persecuting Christians it was very unlikely that a repentant sinner who had sinned by offering to the emperor's genius would be arrested and martyred upon repenting and proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. But the church - through its bishops and priests - was inclined to impose fairly severe (by modern standards) penances on such sinners. In recorded cases the penitent were required to sit outside the door of the church for every mass/divine-liturgy held over a period of months and even years as a sign that their repentance was enduring and true. The letters obtained from imprisoned martyrs on behalf of such persons were received by the bishops responsible for such penances and acted upon by either releasing the penitent from the imposed penance or by reducing the term or the severity of the imposed penance.

In the holy scriptures 2Corinthians 2:5-11 may be a prototypical example of an indulgence insofar as it is a Bishop's appeal (in this case an Apostle's appeal) for mercy to a penitent sinner who was being excluded from full fellowship in the church in Corinth. "5 But if any hath caused sorrow, he hath caused sorrow, not to me, but in part (that I press not too heavily) to you all. 6 Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many; 7 so that contrariwise ye should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you to confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye are obedient in all things. 10 But to whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also: for what I also have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, for your sakes have I forgiven it in the presence of Christ; 11 that no advantage may be gained over us by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

The idea of these letters was particularly poignant in the west, in Rome especially, where many generations of bishops and priests as well as lay people were martyred for their faith in the arenas of that city. Thus the tradition (not Tradition) was established on a wholesome foundation but with the possibility of later generations warping, bending, even perverting the practise until finally the accusations of Martin Luther against Johann Tetzel (a monk in the order of saint Dominic) were put forward in print in the "95 Theses" and other documents of the early sixteenth century.

Now I am wondering how these matters tie in with election. I can see a relationship between penance and election because repentance cannot be 'real' if it is merely intellectual. One cannot repent by praying "Lord forgive me for the theft I did" and still keep the goods stolen. There is a cost to discipleship as Christ taught, "24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. 28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:24-28)

Election is for the repentant who believe.

A lovely post...

So do you think that Indulgences are a perversion of ekklestiastical forgiveness? Of a Bishop's failure to forgive? Or of an imprisoned martyr's intercession for someone excluded in penance from receiving the Gifts of the Altar?

That seems odd to me, because it is an after death intercession for the sake of the soul of someone who has died... We do that all the time, with no thought of purgatory whatsoever... We but ask God's Mercy on the Departed...

Those guys excluded were the Criers, and they would beseech the Faithful outside the doors to remember them in their prayers in the Services, that they should be granted forgiveness of the trespass which ejected them from Communion Services... It is a practice now pretty much gone, even in the monasteries...

In the normal course of things, man repents and God forgives, and then man comes to knowledge of that forgiveness, or not... After death, we no longer have the ability to repent, but God will have Mercy on whom He will have mercy if we intercede in their behalf...

Prayers for the dead are a wonderful thing, as Saturday Services attest... Monasteries remember the names of thousands of the dead regularly...

It is the idea that temporal punishment purges sins in Purgatory that is problematic for the Orthodox...
Dostoyevsky wrote a book about it: Crime and Punishment... We live under the aegis of sin and forgiveness...

I followed your lexical aside, and I must say you are not as dumb as I look...

(I know, Who COULD be?)

God Bless you, brother...

I think RW might have been simply having a bad day...

He is normally not that mean...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 7, 2018

Arsenios said:
A lovely post...

So do you think that Indulgences are a perversion of ekklestiastical forgiveness? Of a Bishop's failure to forgive? Or of an imprisoned martyr's intercession for someone excluded in penance from receiving the Gifts of the Altar?

That seems odd to me, because it is an after death intercession for the sake of the soul of someone who has died... We do that all the time, with no thought of purgatory whatsoever... We but ask God's Mercy on the Departed...

Those guys excluded were the Criers, and they would beseech the Faithful outside the doors to remember them in their prayers in the Services, that they should be granted forgiveness of the trespass which ejected them from Communion Services... It is a practice now pretty much gone, even in the monasteries...

In the normal course of things, man repents and God forgives, and then man comes to knowledge of that forgiveness, or not... After death, we no longer have the ability to repent, but God will have Mercy on whom He will have mercy if we intercede in their behalf...

Prayers for the dead are a wonderful thing, as Saturday Services attest... Monasteries remember the names of thousands of the dead regularly...

It is the idea that temporal punishment purges sins in Purgatory that is problematic for the Orthodox...
Dostoyevsky wrote a book about it: Crime and Punishment... We live under the aegis of sin and forgiveness...

I followed your lexical aside, and I must say you are not as dumb as I look...

(I know, Who COULD be?)

God Bless you, brother...

I think RW might have been simply having a bad day...

He is normally not that mean...

Arsenios

By the way, in my last post I neglected to state that the letters from the martyrs on behalf of penitents are "indulgences", that is the name they received in the west. I am not sure what name a Greek speaker might have used. The letter might have said something like:

From Publius, presbyter of Alexandria and condemned to die for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ
To Alexander bishop of Corinth, greetings in the name of the Lord and in the faith of the saints.

I beg leave to ask of you a boon, and indulgence, on behalf of Marcus who is much grieved and deeply penitent over his wicked act in denying the Lord to save his life, yet I am fully persuaded that he has turned from that wickedness with tears and prayers and much anguish of heart. He has helped me in my suffering here in prison and brought me food and blankets and clothing and he has cared for the need of many others here too and all out of his own purse. These are tokens of a genuine repentance and lively faith in the Lord. So receive him in mercy, forgive, restore and help him lest grief overwhelm him and cause desperation to come to his soul.

...

It is the idea that temporal punishment purges sins in Purgatory that is problematic for the Orthodox...
Dostoyevsky wrote a book about it: Crime and Punishment... We live under the aegis of sin and forgiveness...

Temporal punishments do not purge sins. Perhaps this may be a helpful way of looking at it. Sins wound the soul, forgiveness gives life to the soul, and 'temporal punishments' heal the soul. It is like taking up your cross in the teaching of Christ. A person repents and God forgives yet there are wounds to the soul that sins leave and it takes time for them to heal. In the example that I gave of theft and repentance. Praying for forgiveness is necessary, it is part of walking with Christ, but restoring what was stolen (if it is possible) or making good the loss in some other way is a 'temporal punishment' that heals the wound that the theft made in the soul of the penitent. Other sins leave other wounds, adultery breaks trust and restoring trust takes time and fidelity, gossip wounds reputations and restoring a damaged reputation takes public apology to the one defamed and correction of the gossip (if it was inaccurate) to all to whom it was gossiped takes time. I am confident that many similar cases can be called to mind as you read. The notion of after-earthly-death penance is not too hard to grasp and how it would work is not too hard to understand and its connection to prayers for the dead is - I think - rather obvious. What purges sins is something - I do not know precisely what - like fire purging ores and metals of the dross in them. The idea appears to be present in saint Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. It says

1 Corinthians 3:1-15 "1 Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, 3 for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way? 4 Whenever someone says, I belong to Paul, and another, I belong to Apollos, are you not merely human? 5 What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. 7 Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labour. 9 For we are God's co-workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

Saint Paul's concern here is with evangelisation and building the church here on earth but he sees in the works done to that end a source for reward and a source for loss when judgement comes. Being purged of the errors (in building the church) that marked a person's work is like losing the work in a fire and the one who loses is like a person escaping through a fire. I think that perhaps that is why some speculated that there are purging flames in purgatory but they were speculating and may have read more into saint Paul's words than the saint intended. In any case, no matter how one interprets the phrase "as through fire" it is evident that sins leave some kind of mark, some sort of wound that makes the person inflicted by it feel loss when judgement comes. It is better to lose things, habits of mind, errors of concept, motives that harm rather than help and so forth than it is to lose one's soul. The Lord Jesus Christ pointed to this idea too

Matthew 18:7-9 "7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Arsenios · Jul 7, 2018

Albion said:
Many times that is so.

It is my default - Variance requires great need...

But OTOH, my own disagreement is incidental to the history involved there

You mean local CC history? On this site?

I was speaking to you instead of a Roman Catholic,

I am an Eastern Orthodox Catholic Christian...

The Church of the first 7 Ecumenical Councils...

Which the Roman (eg Latin) Catholics affirm...

and the motives are an integral part of the record.

Motives are personal...
Their record is in the Book of Life...
To be opened by God...

There is no sin in the RCC that is not to be found in the EOC...

Ekklesiastical motives are not a relevant criteria -
The fact that a Church errs badly
simply removes them from the Communion
of other Churches...
until they correct their error...

This has been the case with the RCC and the EOC for a thousand years...
Indeed, my Church has withdrawn Communion from the Jerusalem Patriarchate...
Over a jurisdictional issue in, I believe, Qatar...
Spats are spats, they come and they go...

But Ekklesiological Motive can only be Truth...
It cannot be worldly, as in: "They lied to get money for indulgences!"
Because even if they did lie to get the money...
Even if the Ekklesiarchs doing so were Godless...
Even if they admit they were Godless and liars...
The ISSUE of prayers for the reposed abides, you see...
And its resolution remains unresolved...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 7, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
By the way, in my last post I neglected to state that the letters from the martyrs on behalf of penitents are "indulgences", that is the name they received in the west. I am not sure what name a Greek speaker might have used. The letter might have said something like:
From Publius, presbyter of Alexandria and condemned to die for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ
To Alexander bishop of Corinth, greetings in the name of the Lord and in the faith of the saints.

I beg leave to ask of you a boon, and indulgence, on behalf of Marcus who is much grieved and deeply penitent over his wicked act in denying the Lord to save his life, yet I am fully persuaded that he has turned from that wickedness with tears and prayers and much anguish of heart. He has helped me in my suffering here in prison and brought me food and blankets and clothing and he has cared for the need of many others here too and all out of his own purse. These are tokens of a genuine repentance and lively faith in the Lord. So receive him in mercy, forgive, restore and help him lest grief overwhelm him and cause desperation to come to his soul.

That is intercession for the living who failed a trial and are doing all they can to regain what they lost...

For the life of me, MC, I have been unable to grasp the mind-set of that culture to the point where I can speak from it with any kind of intuitive competence... I read once that the read of a Crier was: "Well, if the Good Word of our Lord was not good enough for you and you walked away into sin, then just stay there as a beggar of alms, and if you remain faithful in your beggardom, you will be restored at your repose." Seems harsh to us, but to them, utterly and reasonably acceptable... Given their beginnings in pagan nations, doubtless appropriate in some way, yet for their children, perhaps not so much, and so the martyric requests for their indulgence... I cannot speak intelligently here...

...

[/quote]

Arsenios said:
It is the idea that temporal punishment purges sins in Purgatory that is problematic for the Orthodox...
Dostoyevsky wrote a book about it: Crime and Punishment... We live under the aegis of sin and forgiveness...

Temporal punishments do not purge sins.

Good news indeed! And pragmatically observable - Beating somebody up does not purge their miscreance... Reoffending is called recidivism, mind you!

The rational I encountered (in CAF I believe) was that because one's sins are temporally committed, and because they have not been repented from adequately, the punishment itself is temporal, which translates temporarily, that the still embedded and unrepentant sins should be purged by temporal punishment after death, so as to present the person's soul clean and whole to God... Again, this is not an Orthodox teaching... And you are flat out denying it - eg temporal punishments do not purge sins...

Perhaps this may be a helpful way of looking at it. Sins wound the soul, forgiveness gives life to the soul, and 'temporal punishments' heal the soul.

Well, a prison sentence can do wonders - But do you really think that, say, beatings, or extra labors, heal the soul of her wounds? Monastic life can be punitive, but this is to help a person attain mindfulness where they are not looking at some feature of themselves that is causing them difficullty... The healing comes with the looking, bringing evil into the light of day, and casting it from one's soul, which is one feature of repentance...

Forgiveness of sin removes the demon of worldly care about a sin committed... Obsessing over old sin is a demonic diversion... I do not think I would characterize it as giving life... But sin wounds a soul... No question... We all know that first hand...

It is like taking up your cross in the teaching of Christ. A person repents and God forgives yet there are wounds to the soul that sins leave and it takes time for them to heal. In the example that I gave of theft and repentance. Praying for forgiveness is necessary, it is part of walking with Christ, but restoring what was stolen (if it is possible) or making good the loss in some other way is a 'temporal punishment' that heals the wound that the theft made in the soul of the penitent. Other sins leave other wounds, adultery breaks trust and restoring trust takes time and fidelity, gossip wounds reputations and restoring a damaged reputation takes public apology to the one defamed and correction of the gossip (if it was inaccurate) to all to whom it was gossiped takes time. I am confident that many similar cases can be called to mind as you read.

Murder comes to mind, and killing of all kinds... How to restore? We have a hagiographic account of a Saint who was given Gifts of Healing and Exorcism... He exorcized and healed a young woman, then had sex with her, then murdered her... Before coming to his senses, and confessing... (I hate this story!) So he departed the monastery a short distance away, dug his own grave, descended into it, and began to pray with tears... For some time... Summer and winter, rain of shine, eating and sleeping but a little, utterly forsaking the world and his life in it... After some 5 years of this, there was a great drought and famine, and he prayed for rain, and rain came... And he was re-entered into the monastery, his sins forgiven...

His suffering gave him disregard for the world... But his regaininng the Kingdom came through prayer... No amount of suffering, involuntary suffering, would have helped him...

The notion of after-earthly-death penance is not too hard to grasp and how it would work is not too hard to understand and its connection to prayers for the dead is - I think - rather obvious.

It makes perfect sense in the crime and punishment understanding of sin - eg Legalism... Sin and wounding, not so much...

What purges sins is something - I do not know precisely what - like fire purging ores and metals of the dross in them.

Whom He hath Justified, these also He Glorified...
(He Who healeth all thine infirmities...)

God does it...
for...
A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise...

I have come to understand "Ask and ye shall receive..." to mean "Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Living a repentant life is ASKING for one's healing of one's infirmities, one's weakness in the face of temptation...
If you keep on asking, you will keep on receiving... And it CAN be spiritually dramatic, but usually not so much - The Glorification is VERY dramatic! The account of Elder Aimillianos is staggering... He started out saying: "I was praying in the monastery in my cell, working on some issues of repentance, and not doing all that well, when..." I had to chuckle when I read: "...and not doing all that well..." He was the ABBOT of that monastery [SimonoPetra on the Holy Mountain], and those folks take no ordinary measures in their repentance! I mean, if HE was not doing all that well, then I have just qualified as burnt toast!

The idea appears to be present in saint Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. It says
1 Corinthians 3... 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.[/I]"

Yes, people with defective works in Christ, like me, will be saved through the fire of their destruction to my loss...

I think that perhaps that is why some speculated that there are purging flames in purgatory but they were speculating and may have read more into saint Paul's words than the saint intended.

Keep this up and I am going to send you to Adelaide's St. Elias...
The Arabs there are smarter than I look...
Not much of a recommendation, mind you!

In any case, no matter how one interprets the phrase "as through fire" it is evident that sins leave some kind of mark, some sort of wound that makes the person inflicted by it feel loss when judgement comes.[/I]"[/INDENT]

Well, Paul sewed tents... I do think that this 'fire' comes in the krisis of this world, trying the souls of those acting in faith, perhaps without knowledge... Building in mud and straw, rather than gold and silver... The fire is the test of the efficacy of one's efforts unto repentance in the face of an onslaught of temptation...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 7, 2018

Think of "temproal punishment" as being of some duration in time (temporary) with loss and possibly some grief at the loss (punishment, but not flames nor beatings, just something that can seem like it hurts) remember the passage in Hebrews: "11 All correction is painful at the moment, rather than pleasant; later, it brings the fruit of peace, that is, holiness, to those who have been trained by it. 12 Lift up, then, your drooping hands, and strengthen your trembling knees; 13 make level the ways for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but healed." (Hebrews 12:11-13)

Arsenios said:
That is intercession for the living who failed a trial and are doing all they can to regain what they lost...

For the life of me, MC, I have been unable to grasp the mind-set of that culture to the point where I can speak from it with any kind of intuitive competence... I read once that the read of a Crier was: "Well, if the Good Word of our Lord was not good enough for you and you walked away into sin, then just stay there as a beggar of alms, and if you remain faithful in your beggardom, you will be restored at your repose." Seems harsh to us, but to them, utterly and reasonably acceptable... Given their beginnings in pagan nations, doubtless appropriate in some way, yet for their children, perhaps not so much, and so the martyric requests for their indulgence... I cannot speak intelligently here...

...

Good news indeed! And pragmatically observable - Beating somebody up does not purge their miscreance... Reoffending is called recidivism, mind you!

The rational I encountered (in CAF I believe) was that because one's sins are temporally committed, and because they have not been repented from adequately, the punishment itself is temporal, which translates temporarily, that the still embedded and unrepentant sins should be purged by temporal punishment after death, so as to present the person's soul clean and whole to God... Again, this is not an Orthodox teaching... And you are flat out denying it - eg temporal punishments do not purge sins...

Well, a prison sentence can do wonders - But do you really think that, say, beatings, or extra labors, heal the soul of her wounds? Monastic life can be punitive, but this is to help a person attain mindfulness where they are not looking at some feature of themselves that is causing them difficullty... The healing comes with the looking, bringing evil into the light of day, and casting it from one's soul, which is one feature of repentance...

Forgiveness of sin removes the demon of worldly care about a sin committed... Obsessing over old sin is a demonic diversion... I do not think I would characterize it as giving life... But sin wounds a soul... No question... We all know that first hand...

Murder comes to mind, and killing of all kinds... How to restore? We have a hagiographic account of a Saint who was given Gifts of Healing and Exorcism... He exorcized and healed a young woman, then had sex with her, then murdered her... Before coming to his senses, and confessing... (I hate this story!) So he departed the monastery a short distance away, dug his own grave, descended into it, and began to pray with tears... For some time... Summer and winter, rain of shine, eating and sleeping but a little, utterly forsaking the world and his life in it... After some 5 years of this, there was a great drought and famine, and he prayed for rain, and rain came... And he was re-entered into the monastery, his sins forgiven...

His suffering gave him disregard for the world... But his regaininng the Kingdom came through prayer... No amount of suffering, involuntary suffering, would have helped him...

It makes perfect sense in the crime and punishment understanding of sin - eg Legalism... Sin and wounding, not so much...

Whom He hath Justified, these also He Glorified...
(He Who healeth all thine infirmities...)

God does it...
for...
A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise...

I have come to understand "Ask and ye shall receive..." to mean "Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Living a repentant life is ASKING for one's healing of one's infirmities, one's weakness in the face of temptation...
If you keep on asking, you will keep on receiving... And it CAN be spiritually dramatic, but usually not so much - The Glorification is VERY dramatic! The account of Elder Aimillianos is staggering... He started out saying: "I was praying in the monastery in my cell, working on some issues of repentance, and not doing all that well, when..." I had to chuckle when I read: "...and not doing all that well..." He was the ABBOT of that monastery [SimonoPetra on the Holy Mountain], and those folks take no ordinary measures in their repentance! I mean, if HE was not doing all that well, then I have just qualified as burnt toast!

Yes, people with defective works in Christ, like me, will be saved through the fire of their destruction to my loss...

Keep this up and I am going to send you to Adelaide's St. Elias...
The Arabs there are smarter than I look...
Not much of a recommendation, mind you!

Well, Paul sewed tents... I do think that this 'fire' comes in the krisis of this world, trying the souls of those acting in faith, perhaps without knowledge... Building in mud and straw, rather than gold and silver... The fire is the test of the efficacy of one's efforts unto repentance in the face of an onslaught of temptation...

Arsenios

atpollard · Jul 8, 2018

MennoSota said:
Hmmm...it seems that a handful of people have no desire to address the topic of election. I suggest the other topics can go elsewhere.

Like Sheol?

MennoSota · Jul 8, 2018

atpollard said:
Like Sheol?

LOL, yes. [emoji28]

popsthebuilder · Jul 8, 2018

MennoSota said:
LOL, yes. [emoji28]

Can we talk about GOD'S purpose and will for the elect more?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

MoreCoffee · Jul 8, 2018

popsthebuilder said:
Can we talk about GOD'S purpose and will for the elect more?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

I suspect we could write a lot more about GOD'S purpose and will for the elect.

Arsenios · Jul 8, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Think of "temproal punishment" as being of some duration in time (temporary) with loss and possibly some grief at the loss (punishment, but not flames nor beatings, just something that can seem like it hurts) remember the passage in Hebrews: "11 All correction is painful at the moment, rather than pleasant; later, it brings the fruit of peace, that is, holiness, to those who have been trained by it. 12 Lift up, then, your drooping hands, and strengthen your trembling knees; 13 make level the ways for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but healed." (Hebrews 12:11-13)

We are off topic here...

If you want to we can discuss it on its own thread...

It is not a feature of the Orthodox Catholic Faith of the East, so I have no dog in the ring...

And it seems like a lose-lose - I cannot embrace it, and you cannot abandon it...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 8, 2018

AtPollard said:
Like Sheol?

MennoSota said:
LOL, yes. [emoji28]

The Sheol Brothers!!

Arsenios

Arsenios · Jul 8, 2018

So practically speaking, IF there is NOTHING I can do to join the Elect...

Grab the Beer and the remote and WAIT for God to do something??

Arsenios

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