Grace

MoreCoffee · Jul 29, 2018

Arsenios said:
The doctrine of Theosis is Orthodox - It is not a part of any other Confession... It is our Treasury...

Theosis is a Greek word in the Latin speaking west the concept was expressed as "the beatific vision" which is both to see God as he truly is and to be made like Christ's humanity in his resurrection; that is to say to be as much like God as a creature can be, to share the Divine Nature in as full a measure as a creature can. In short it is to be God in every way that a creature can be.

It is about the Deification of the Holy Ones of God, the Saints...

It means the possession by Grace of that which Christ possessed by Nature...

Amen.

It is not given to many...

It is the Gift of Himself by God to Man in the Marriage of the Lamb in this life to those who are mature in Christ, to those perfected in Christ...

Would you clarify this, expand on it, because as I am reading it I am not sure that I know what you mean.

Having said that, it is also the Perfection of the Faith of the Old Testament Saints, for the Gift of this Salvation is of God, and is not an exclusive Gift of the Incarnation of God...

Indeed, it can be argued that the reason for the Incarnation of Christ was to Give us Rebirth BY God in Baptism so that unlike those under the Law of Moses, man can attain God by obedience to Christ... Theosis is the hidden feature of the Councils guiding their rulings and decisions which protect this UNION with God, this KNOWING God that John's Gospel defines as Life Eternal...

It is not an intellectual event, this knowing God, but is an ontological one given BY God as He decides to Give it... It is the product of an encounter by God with man - The archetype is Moses, who having encountered God, had a face so lit up and shining that he had to cover it so that the Israelites could look at him... For him it became a permanent fisture [feature?] of his visage... For others, not so much normally, and varying according to personal preparation by repentance...

The two categories relevant are the Uncreated God and His Creation...

Uncreated Grace is God Himself as God...

Created grace is a good gift from creation given by God...

God's Providence is created grace given by God...

God's Salvation is Un-created Grace, is God's Giving of Himself...

All this is what Catholic teaching presents to the faithful. It is in the CCC and in the documents of the councils of the Catholic Church.

From your articles, it appears that the RCC does not possess this doctrine...

"Father Gemelli sees in the Catholic University the privileged place in which it would be possible to throw a bridge between the past and the future, between the ancient classical culture and the new scientific culture, between the values of modern culture and the eternal message of the Gospel. From this fruitful synthesis there would be derived - he rightly trusted - a most effective impulse towards the implementation of a full humanism, dynamically open to the boundless horizons of divinization, to which historical man is called." (Pope John Paul II. "Catholic University of the Sacred Heart." The Holy See. The Holy See, 8 Dec. 1978. Web. 22 Aug. 2014.)

"Sacramental life finds in the Holy Eucharist its fulfillment and its summit, in such a way that it is through the Eucharist that the Church most profoundly realizes and reveals its nature. Through the Holy Eucharist the event of Christ's Pasch expands throughout the Church. Through Holy Baptism and Confirmation, indeed, the members of Christ are anointed by the Holy Spirit, grafted on to Christ; and through the Holy Eucharist the Church becomes what she is destined to be through Baptism and Confirmation. By communion with the body and blood of Christ the faithful grow in that mysterious divinization which by the Holy Spirit makes them dwell in the Son as children of the Father." (Pope John Paul II, and Mar Ignatius Zakka I Iwas. "Common Declaration of His Holiness John Paul II and His Holiness Mar Ignatius Zakka I Iwas." The Holy See. The Holy See, 23 June 1984. Web. 22 Aug. 2014.)

"As Saint Augustine so strikingly phrased it, Christ 'wishes to create a place in which it is possible for all people to find true life'. This 'place' is his Body and his Spirit, in which the whole of human life, redeemed and forgiven, is renewed and made divine." (Pope John Paul II. "8th World Youth Day, Message of the Holy Father." The Holy See. The Holy See, 12 Aug. 1992. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

"An essential aspect of your apostolic charge is to strengthen your brother priests in faith and to confirm them in their identity as 'other Christs', who offer their lives in union with Christ for the salvation of the world." (Pope John Paul II. "To the Bishops of Zambia on Their 'Ad Limina' Visit." The Holy See. The Holy See, 5 May 1988. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

many more examples can be given.

I've understood, having been taught, that Christians are by grace "other Christs in the world and for the sake of the world" so that all whom God calls will be saved and that some among the faithful become so deeply entwined with the Lord in this life that they become so much another Christ that it is as if Christ himself were in front of you when you are before them.

Yet St. Thomas Aquinas summarized it about a year before his repose, when he had such an encounter, and recused himself from teaching and writing, telling his Abbot of the entirety of his great works and everything he had ever written, and we can infer even thought, that all of it is but STRAW - eg Fit for Burning...

He had met God qua God, and never taught or wrote again of matters theological...

I heard his story of this as a sophmore in college in philosophy class as an Ayn Rand atheist, and it brought me up short - I recognized a witness even as an atheist of an encounter with God, but such was to elude me another 12 years, nor did I ever dream it even might occur... Nor did I seek it... But I recognized it... As an atheist...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 29, 2018

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church we have these things

"In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully 'divinized' by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to 'be like God', but 'without God, before God, and not in accordance with God'." ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 1: 1: 7: 3: 398." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: 'Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.' 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.' On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: 'Listen to him!' Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: 'Love one another as I have loved you.' This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example. The Word became flesh to make us 'partakers of the divine nature': 'For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.' 'For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.' 'The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 2: 3: 1: 1: 459-460." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 22 Aug. 2014.)

"Christ and his Church thus together make up the 'whole Christ' (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity: Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. ... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does 'head and members' mean? Christ and the Church. 'Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.' 'Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.' A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: 'About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 3: 9: 2: 2: 795." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

"Before the grandeur of the priestly grace and office, the holy doctors felt an urgent call to conversion in order to conform their whole lives to him whose sacrament had made them ministers. Thus St. Gregory of Nazianzus, as a very young priest, exclaimed: We must begin by purifying ourselves before purifying others; we must be instructed to be able to instruct, become light to illuminate, draw close to God to bring him close to others, be sanctified to sanctify, lead by the hand and counsel prudently. I know whose ministers we are, where we find ourselves and to where we strive. I know God's greatness and man's weakness, but also his potential. [Who then is the priest? He is] the defender of truth, who stands with angels, gives glory with archangels, causes sacrifices to rise to the altar on high, shares Christ's priesthood, refashions creation, restores it in God's image, recreates it for the world on high and, even greater, is divinized and divinizes. And the holy Cure of Ars: 'The priest continues the work of redemption on earth. ... If we really understood the priest on earth, we would die not of fright but of love. ... The Priesthood is the love of the heart of Jesus.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 2: 2: 3: 6: 7: 1589." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: '[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. ... For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.' ... The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification: 'Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 3: 1: 3: 2: 1: 1988, 1999." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other 'Christs.' God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called 'Christs.' The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, 'Father!' because he has now begun to be a son." ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 4: 2: 2: 2: 2782" The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

Arsenios · Jul 29, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church we have these things

....

This catechism seems to have included theosis in it...
In 2014...

Now, do you have any personal accounts of its occurrence?
Padre Pio is the last I have heard of...
Are there more since him?
And accounts of what it looks like?

Do you have it being referred to prior to AD 2000?

And where in this is the issue of the two graces accounted?

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

Arsenios said:
This catechism seems to have included theosis in it...
In 2014...

My 1994 copy of the CCC has those quotes. I haven't checked the Catechism of the council of Trent for theosis (beatific vision) but I could if you like.

Now, do you have any personal accounts of its occurrence?
Padre Pio is the last I have heard of...
Are there more since him?
And accounts of what it looks like?

Do you have it being referred to prior to AD 2000?

And where in this is the issue of the two graces accounted?

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

From The Catechism of the Council of Trent I put the numbers in the sections when I created the file for use in a bible-bot that I wrote for use on IRC. I did the work on that in 2003.

681 The Beatific Vision

682 For the blessed always see God present and by this greatest and most exalted of gifts, being made partakers of the divine nature, they enjoy true and solid happiness. Our belief in this happiness should be joined with an assured hope that we too shall one day, through the divine goodness, attain it. This the Fathers declared in their Creed, which says: I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

683 An Illustration Of This Truth

684 These are truths, so divine that they cannot be expressed in any words or comprehended by us in thought. We may, however, trace some resemblance of this happiness in sensible objects. Thus, iron when acted on by fire becomes inflamed and while it is substantially the same seems changed into fire, a different substance; so likewise the blessed, who are admitted into the glory of heaven and burn with a love of God, are so affected that, without ceasing to be what they are, they may be said with truth to differ more from those still on earth than red-hot iron differs from itself when cold.
685 To say all in a few words, supreme and absolute happiness, which we call essential, consists in the possession of God; for what can he lack to consummate his happiness who possesses the God of all goodness and perfection?

686 Accessory Happiness

687 To this happiness, however, are added certain gifts which are common to all the blessed, and which, because more within the reach of human comprehension, are generally found more effectual in moving and inflaming the heart. These the Apostle seems to have in view when, in his Epistle to the Romans, he says: Glory and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good.

688 Glory

689 For the blessed shall enjoy glory; not only that glory which we have already shown to constitute essential happiness, or to be its inseparable accompaniment, but also that glory which consists in the clear and distinct knowledge which each (of the blessed) shall have of the singular and exalted dignity of his companions (in glory).

690 Honour

691 And how distinguished must not that honour be which is conferred by God Himself, who no longer calls them servants, but friends, brethren and sons of God! Hence the Redeemer will address His elect in these most loving and honourable words: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you. Justly, then, may we exclaim: Thy friends, O God, are made exceedingly honourable. They shall also receive the highest praise from Christ the Lord, in presence of His heavenly Father and His Angels.
692 And if nature has implanted in the heart of every man the common desire of securing the esteem of men eminent for wisdom, because they are deemed the most reliable judges of merit, what an accession of glory to the blessed, to show towards each other the highest veneration !

693 Peace

694 To enumerate all the delights with which the souls of the blessed shall be filled would be an endless task. We cannot even conceive them in thought. With this truth, however, the minds of the faithful should be deeply impressed - that the happiness of the Saints is full to overflowing of all those pleasures which can be enjoyed or even desired in this life, whether they regard the powers of the mind or of the perfection of the body; albeit this must be in a manner more exalted than, to use the Apostle's words, eye hath seen, ear heard, or the heart of man conceived.
695 Thus the body, which was before gross and material, shall put off in heaven its mortality, and having become refined and spiritualised, will no longer require corporal food; while the soul shall be satiated to its supreme delight with that eternal food of glory which the Master of that great feast passing will minister to all.
696 Who will desire rich apparel or royal robes, where there shall be no further use for such things, and where all shall be clothed with immortality and splendour, and adorned with a crown of imperishable glory?
697 And if the possession of a spacious and magnificent mansion contributes to human happiness, what more spacious, what more magnificent, can be conceived than heaven itself, which is illumined throughout with the brightness of God ? Hence the Prophet, contemplating the beauty of this dwelling-place, and burning with the desire of reaching those mansions of bliss, exclaims: How lovely are thy tabernacles, O Lord of hosts! my soul longeth and fainteth for the courts of the Lord. My heart and my flesh have rejoiced in the living God. That the faithful may be all filled with the same sentiments and utter the same language should be the object of the pastor's most earnest desires, as it should also be of his zealous labours. For in my Father's house, says our Lord, there are many mansions," in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one's deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings.

698 How to Arrive at the Enjoyment of this Happiness

699 The pastor, therefore, should not only encourage the faithful to seek this happiness, but should frequently remind them that the sure way of obtaining it is to possess the virtues of faith and charity, to persevere in prayer and the use of the Sacraments, and to discharge all the duties of kindness towards their neighbour.
700 Thus, through the mercy of God, who has prepared that blessed glory for those who love Him, shall be one day fulfilled the words of the Prophet: My people shall sit in the beauty of peace, and in the tabernacle of confidence, and in wealthy rest.

Josiah · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
The definition of grace
The greatness of the gift of grace may be judged from the Biblical declarations of the effect of justification. Justification is a passage from the state of sin to the state of grace; from the old to the new man; from the mere flesh to the life of the spirit; from injustice to justice; from condemnation to liberation; from slavery to freedom; from sordidness to purity; from darkness to light; from death to life. The soul of the just man reflects the very light of the Godhead; it shines with a radiance like that of Christ Himself in His Transfiguration on the mountain.

Justification involves a negative effect and a positive one; and the two always go together: the remission of sin, and the infusion of grace.

Grace is favour or good-will. God’s favour or goodness to us, is God Himself, as all things in God are God. That is Uncreated Grace – which some say was forgotten in the controversies over grace after Trent.

Sanctifying grace. Sanctifying Grace is a supernatural gift of God by which the soul is made pleasing to Him. In Latin it is called gratia gratum faciens: grace making one pleasing – pleasing to God, that is. It removes all stain of serious sin; it gives the soul a new and higher life and prepares the soul for that union with God destined for it in the blessedness of Heaven. It is called Sanctifying Grace, because it sanctifies, makes holy, with the Holiness of God Himself. It is a supernatural gift, because it is something to which no creature as such can ever have any natural right or claim, or attain by its own powers. It is called Habitual Grace, because it dwells and endures in the soul as a habitual, i.e., permanent and constant, quality. It is also called Justifying Grace because by it the sinner is “justified”, i.e., made just or righteous.

Sanctifying Grace, a higher life, a participation in the divinity. The soul of man gives him a three-fold life. It enables him to grow, mature and reproduce, like a plant (vegetative life); to feel and perceive with the five senses, and move and follow instincts, like animals (sensitive life); and to think, reason, understand, contemplate, love and choose freely (intellectual life). But there is still a higher life, a divine life, a life which, by a true and real change, raises man above the natural excellence of the most exalted creatures, and sets him, so to speak, on a level with God Himself; a life which gives us a share in what is special to God Himself, a share in the knowledge God has of His own perfections and in the happiness He derives therefrom. This life is given to us by Sanctifying Grace. The state of grace is not merely the absence of mortal sin; it is a positive acquisition and elevation. “Therefore, if any one is in Christ”, says St Paul, “he is a new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). Scripture uses three participles: re-created, re-born, renewed. St Peter says the Father “has granted to us His precious and very great promises, that through these you may … become partakers of the divine nature.” (2 Pet 1:4). So Sanctifying Grace is also called Divine or Divinising Grace. Some of the Fathers speak of man’s divinisation or deification—as St John of the Cross uses the phrase, “We become God by participation”—which must be understood rightly of course! St John the Apostle says, “we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 Jn 3:2), and the Church prays at the Offertory of the Mass that “we may be made sharers in the Divinity of Him who deigned to participate in our humanity.”

Sanctifying Grace makes us children of God. A rational creature as such is not a child of God but a servant of God. Through Grace, God adopts us as His sons; and so brothers of Christ. It makes each of us an alter Christus, another Christ. We often use that phrase to speak of the effect of ordination, but in the early Fathers it refers to any Christian.

Sanctifying Grace enthrones the Holy Trinity in our soul. We speak of the Divine Indwelling. The change in the soul caused by Grace is wrought by all Three Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity, but, being a work of Divine Love, it is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. His presence is incompatible with serious sin, “for”, as the Church prays in the Liturgy, “He is Himself the remission of all sins”—that phrase is in both the old and new Roman Missal.{{1}} The Holy Spirit is the Divine Artist who makes our soul like the soul of Jesus. Making us other Christs, the Holy Spirit takes up His dwelling in our body and soul: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you?” (1 Cor 6:19). The Father and the Son are with the Holy Spirit in this indwelling: “If anyone loves me”, says Christ, “he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make our home with him.” (Jn 14:23)

Sanctifying Grace caused in us by God through the humanity of Christ. God is the principal cause of Grace; Christ as Man is the instrumental cause. His humanity is the instrument of the divinity. He is grace’s transmitter. According to St Thomas,{{2}} the entire humanity of Christ co-operates in the production of Grace. The humanity of Christ is joined to God in inseparable union, and is always used by Him in the production of Sanctifying Grace. – God may or may not employ a Sacrament as a means. He often gives Sanctifying Grace outside the Sacraments: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His own sacraments.” (CCC 1257. Cf. St Thomas, Summa Theol., III, q. 64, a. 7: “God did not bind His power to the Sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the Sacrament”.)

With Sanctifying Grace we receive virtues and gifts. These are the necessary concomitants (accompaniments) of grace. They are not grace but always accompany it:

The divine virtues. With Grace we receive the three Divine Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity: we believe in God because of His truthfulness; we hope in God because of His power and willingness to help us; we love God because of His own goodness and love.

The moral virtues. The Moral Virtues are all those other virtues which are necessary for a good Christian life, which may be grouped under the four headings: Prudence, Justice, Temperance and Fortitude. (cf. Wis 8:7)

The gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just as sanctifying grace makes our souls to be like that of Jesus, the virtues and gifts enable us to act like Jesus. A Christian virtue is a power of acting in a Christ-like way.

(source)

This CONFIRMS the impression I got in Catholicism..... it knows NOTHING of grace in justification.

Arsenios · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
From The Catechism of the Council of Trent I put the numbers in the sections when I created the file for use in a bible-bot that I wrote for use on IRC. I did the work on that in 2003.

Looks like you did some pretty serious and extensive study...

681 The Beatific Vision
682 For the blessed always see God present

Have you ever met one of these blessed ones?

684
These are truths,
so divine that they cannot be expressed in any words
or comprehended by us in thought.

When something cannot be expressed in words
Nor be comprehended in thought,
It is a good place to stop...

We may, however, trace some resemblance of this happiness in sensible objects.

Actually, we may not...

685 Supreme and absolute happiness...
Consists in the possession of God;

This is the problem with Scholastic Theology... It is intellectually oriented, even when speaking of things incapable of being thought or uttered... In these arenas, it is deeds that speak, not words... To say that supreme and absolute happiness consists in one's possession of God is blather... And to follow it with a speculative philosophic rhetorical poser confirms the miss-fire:

For what can he lack to consummate his happiness
He who possesses the God of all goodness and perfection?

The process, you see, is one taken from reports whose referents are imagined, not experienced, and then speculated upon in thought, and this even when one begins with the ostensive truth that thought and words have no place, but then go on to ANALOGIZE the heating of iron from cold metal to oxidation in flame... THAT analogization is NOT what the Holy Fathers DO when they write about what happens... Yet it is the only imaginative tool that the intellect has to speculate about concerning an event which it has not itself experienced...

This is why Acquinas said what he did: "All I have written is straw..."

The scholastic phronema has very little to say about theosis... It has become a chic topic of late, more grist for the mill of the intellect, something else to define and delineate and find a place for in the new understandings to be placed on the shelves and in the boxes and jars and petri dishes and tubes of cognitive organizations of intellectual attainments... Which is why I questioned the lateness of the dating of its mention... I can give Patristic accounts of it back some 2000 years, but I question if it will be found in the official Catholic Catechism of, say, 1900... It truth, it should perhaps not be catechized, which is for enquirers, for the same reason that John's Gospel is only read after Pascha... Starting with John is a mistake for most, because it presumes purification of the heart...

Enough for now...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

Arsenios said:
Looks like you did some pretty serious and extensive study...

Have you ever met one of these blessed ones?

When something cannot be expressed in words
Nor be comprehended in thought,
It is a good place to stop...

Actually, we may not...

This is the problem with Scholastic Theology... It is intellectually oriented, even when speaking of things incapable of being thought or uttered... In these arenas, it is deeds that speak, not words... To say that supreme and absolute happiness consists in one's possession of God is blather... And to follow it with a speculative philosophic rhetorical poser confirms the miss-fire:

The process, you see, is one taken from reports whose referents are imagined, not experienced, and then speculated upon in thought, and this even when one begins with the ostensive truth that thought and words have no place, but then go on to ANALOGIZE the heating of iron from cold metal to oxidation in flame... THAT analogization is NOT what the Holy Fathers DO when they write about what happens... Yet it is the only imaginative tool that the intellect has to speculate about concerning an event which it has not itself experienced...

This is why Acquinas said what he did: "All I have written is straw..."

The scholastic phronema has very little to say about theosis... It has become a chic topic of late, more grist for the mill of the intellect, something else to define and delineate and find a place for in the new understandings to be placed on the shelves and in the boxes and jars and petri dishes and tubes of cognitive organizations of intellectual attainments... Which is why I questioned the lateness of the dating of its mention... I can give Patristic accounts of it back some 2000 years, but I question if it will be found in the official Catholic Catechism of, say, 1900... It truth, it should perhaps not be catechized, which is for enquirers, for the same reason that John's Gospel is only read after Pascha... Starting with John is a mistake for most, because it presumes purification of the heart...

Enough for now...

Arsenios

It seems like you place a great deal of emphasis on the alleged statement of saint Thomas. Have you verified from primary sources that saint Thomas ever said or wrote such words?

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

Josiah said:
This CONFIRMS the impression I got in Catholicism..... it knows NOTHING of grace in justification.

Your post reflects more on your alleged "understanding" than on the facts.

MennoSota · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
From The Catechism of the Catholic Church we have these things

"In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully 'divinized' by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to 'be like God', but 'without God, before God, and not in accordance with God'." ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 1: 1: 7: 3: 398." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: 'Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.' 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.' On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: 'Listen to him!' Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: 'Love one another as I have loved you.' This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example. The Word became flesh to make us 'partakers of the divine nature': 'For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.' 'For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.' 'The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 2: 3: 1: 1: 459-460." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 22 Aug. 2014.)

"Christ and his Church thus together make up the 'whole Christ' (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity: Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. ... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does 'head and members' mean? Christ and the Church. 'Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.' 'Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.' A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: 'About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 1: 2: 3: 9: 2: 2: 795." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

"Before the grandeur of the priestly grace and office, the holy doctors felt an urgent call to conversion in order to conform their whole lives to him whose sacrament had made them ministers. Thus St. Gregory of Nazianzus, as a very young priest, exclaimed: We must begin by purifying ourselves before purifying others; we must be instructed to be able to instruct, become light to illuminate, draw close to God to bring him close to others, be sanctified to sanctify, lead by the hand and counsel prudently. I know whose ministers we are, where we find ourselves and to where we strive. I know God's greatness and man's weakness, but also his potential. [Who then is the priest? He is] the defender of truth, who stands with angels, gives glory with archangels, causes sacrifices to rise to the altar on high, shares Christ's priesthood, refashions creation, restores it in God's image, recreates it for the world on high and, even greater, is divinized and divinizes. And the holy Cure of Ars: 'The priest continues the work of redemption on earth. ... If we really understood the priest on earth, we would die not of fright but of love. ... The Priesthood is the love of the heart of Jesus.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 2: 2: 3: 6: 7: 1589." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: '[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. ... For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.' ... The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification: 'Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.'" ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 3: 1: 3: 2: 1: 1988, 1999." The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 26 Aug. 2014.)

"We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other 'Christs.' God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called 'Christs.' The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, 'Father!' because he has now begun to be a son." ("Catechism of the Catholic Church 4: 2: 2: 2: 2782" The Holy See. The Holy See, n.d. Web. 29 Aug. 2014.)

Now I saw in my dream, that at the end of the valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of pilgrims that had gone this way formerly; and while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a cave, where two giants, Pope and Pagan, dwelt in old times; by whose power and tyranny the men whose bones, blood, ashes, etc., lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that Pagan has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is, by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger days, grown so crazy and stiff in his joints that he can now do little more than sit in his cave’s mouth, grinning at pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails because he cannot come at them. So I saw that Christian went on his way; yet, at the sight of the old man that sat at the mouth of the cave, he could not tell what to think, especially because he spoke to him, though he could not go after him, saying, You will never mend, till more of you be burned. But he held his peace, and set a good face on it; and so went by, and catched no hurt.

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

MennoSota said:
Now I saw in my dream, that at the end of the valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of pilgrims that had gone this way formerly; and while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a cave, where two giants, Pope and Pagan, dwelt in old times; by whose power and tyranny the men whose bones, blood, ashes, etc., lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that Pagan has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is, by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger days, grown so crazy and stiff in his joints that he can now do little more than sit in his cave’s mouth, grinning at pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails because he cannot come at them. So I saw that Christian went on his way; yet, at the sight of the old man that sat at the mouth of the cave, he could not tell what to think, especially because he spoke to him, though he could not go after him, saying, You will never mend, till more of you be burned. But he held his peace, and set a good face on it; and so went by, and catched no hurt.

You quote from a fictional tale all you like. It only goes to show how far from gospel grace your posts have become.

MennoSota · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
You quote from a fictional tale all you like. It only goes to show how far from gospel grace your posts have become.

Wait, What!?
You preach works. Yet you claim it as grace. How odd. But, you just parrot the unregenerate leaders of your clan.

Arsenios · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
It seems like you place a great deal of emphasis on the alleged statement of saint Thomas. Have you verified from primary sources that saint Thomas ever said or wrote such words?

Just the event of my own encounter with God qua God, where I who had been an intellectual's intellectual, had my whole world turned upside down, inside out, and backwards, in less than 4 seconds, where it has remained to this day and hour... And not long after THAT encounter, I happened to remember St. Thomas' holy words: "All I have written is straw..." And I finally knew what had happened with him...

I am something of a Spiritual Tracker, even when I was an atheist...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Jul 30, 2018

Arsenios said:
Just the event of my own encounter with God qua God, where I who had been an intellectual's intellectual, had my whole world turned upside down, inside out, and backwards, in less than 4 seconds, where it has remained to this day and hour... And not long after THAT encounter, I happened to remember St. Thomas' holy words: "All I have written is straw..." And I finally knew what had happened with him...

I am something of a Spiritual Tracker, even when I was an atheist...

Arsenios

Was there no difference between your experience and the one you allege for saint Thomas Aquinas? He was a Christian and faithful in life and deed to his calling. If he did indeed have such an encounter as you describe then he had it as a Christian, while you - if I have not misunderstood your posts from past conversations - had your experience as an atheist. I know something of life as an atheist and of an encounter with Jesus Christ that changed that because I too made such a transition by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Arsenios · Jul 30, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
Was there no difference between your experience and the one you allege for saint Thomas Aquinas? He was a Christian and faithful in life and deed to his calling. If he did indeed have such an encounter as you describe then he had it as a Christian, while you - if I have not misunderstood your posts from past conversations - had your experience as an atheist. I know something of life as an atheist and of an encounter with Jesus Christ that changed that because I too made such a transition by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Look, it is one thing to receive the Call of God and turn to repentance and Baptism into Christ...
Mine was not that kind of an encounter...
Mine was more like an Old Testament Salvation...
Yet it came utterly outside normal "channels" of Grace...

I so scorned Christians that I KNEW for an undisputed fact that the God I knew was NOT the Christian God...
So I am not an exemplar of Christian discipleship...
My discipleship was more directly through the world as fallen...
I simply sought with integrity to heal my own soul - It was seriously messed up...
And I went on a rage to heal until I got to the end, and failed...
I will not give you too much detail, but Spiritual encounters I initially understood as my "deeper self", OK?
I had some 30 years with no spiritual experience at all...

But the 3rd Christmas, I encountered God AS God - His revelation - Perhaps 2 seconds worth...
And in this, I knew God as God, seeing into His Abyss of Power/Love, and I knew that all I had written and spoken and thought was straw, so to speak... Immediately, my perception of everything turned upside down, backwards, and inside out... My whole cognitive apparatus became inverted... It is STILL inverted... I mean it happened, and I said within myself: "Oh my god, this is God! This changes everything..." And it changed everything...

And in all this, I KNEW He is not the Christian God... He waited 14 years to show me otherwise... Yet I walked with Him at my side all that time as I waded through spiritual traditions trying to find anyone who KNEW God as I did, and there were none... Until I encountered the Philokalia - These are my guys!

So I did not have Thomas's track, but I KNOW the total overturning of intellectual understanding that occurs when one encounters God AS God... And there is something about this kind of an event - One KNOWS others who have also had it on sight... Or soon thereafter... It does not take long to know who has and who has not had it... And for those who have, they are immediate best friends forever...

But I am not typical at all... Yet I am friends with the Saints... Both those living and those reposed...

And I identify with most of the cast of characters in the NT... From first hand experience...

I mean, it has been an astonishing life...

When I first heard the term theosis, or divinization, I knew immediately what it meant, by experience... And I knew that these guys are my guys in the Spirit... They are regularly though not commonly found in the EOC... I have encountered perhaps one in the RCC, and another in the Coptic Church... The Spirit blows where it wills...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Aug 1, 2018

Grace is grace brother Arsenios. It is a gift from God no matter how it is given and no matter how it is received and the fruit that saving grace is intended to create is the goodly fruit of the Holy Spirit. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, forbearance, [23] meekness, faith, modesty, abstinence, chastity. There is no law against such things.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

MoreCoffee · Aug 2, 2018

As a thought that may be unknown to you, brother Arsenios, these words are spoken at every mass and are a part of the canon of the mass - the most ancient and most enduring part of the mass in the Roman Rite:
By the mystery of this water and wine [here the water is added to the wine in the chalice]
may we come to share in the divinity of Christ
who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

Grace

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

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