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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Grace

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE
      Creation ... did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator.
      An astonishing statement!

      Philosophically true enough, I suppose,
      since creation as we know it is always in a state of becoming...

      God did say that creation was very good prior to Adam...

      Any idea of where this teaching comes from?
      Which Church Father and where?

      Arsenios

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      An astonishing statement!

      Philosophically true enough, I suppose,
      since creation as we know it is always in a state of becoming...

      God did say that creation was very good prior to Adam...

      Any idea of where this teaching comes from?
      Which Church Father and where?

      Arsenios
      I have not checked the sources because the statement is, in my opinion, observational and obvious. For people creation moves through time. Since the statement is about creation ... Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. the universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I have not checked the sources because the statement is, in my opinion, observational and obvious. For people creation moves through time. Since the statement is about creation ... Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. the universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
      Well, as an Orthodox Christian, having never heard of this doctrine, I would ask its attestation... Please...
      I do not recognize this voice as the Voice I know...

      In practical terms, does it not imply ethically that we are to become a part of the perfecting of creation if we are in Christ? And yet what we see is that creation continues on its way as fallen through the Fall of Adam, and as the Arena of Contest for the Salvation of our souls... And we are but a generation away from the evil that we disciple our own children to reject....

      Perhaps "creation" has some technical meaning in the Latin Scholastic usage where it is designating human beings, and this is the very thing I addressed in the prior paragraph... But most certainly, can one discern some perfecting process in the very nature of the Cosmos? And if yes, then where?

      Are you Australian?

      Arsenios

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      An astonishing statement!

      Philosophically true enough, I suppose,
      since creation as we know it is always in a state of becoming...
      The days of creation were not 24 hour episodes, in other words. Theistic Evolution.

    5. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    6. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      The days of creation were not 24 hour episodes, in other words. Theistic Evolution.
      The Creation Account is speaking about that which is prior to time...

      So I don't know if your "in other words" of "Theistic Evolution" still applies... ??

      Arsenios

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      The days of creation were not 24 hour episodes, in other words. Theistic Evolution.
      Mere becoming does not necessarily entail evolution...

      Change of itself can be for better or for worse...

      I get nervous around people who love change for the sake of change...

      Arsenios

    8. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Well, as an Orthodox Christian, having never heard of this doctrine, I would ask its attestation... Please...
      I do not recognize this voice as the Voice I know...

      In practical terms, does it not imply ethically that we are to become a part of the perfecting of creation if we are in Christ? And yet what we see is that creation continues on its way as fallen through the Fall of Adam, and as the Arena of Contest for the Salvation of our souls... And we are but a generation away from the evil that we disciple our own children to reject....

      Perhaps "creation" has some technical meaning in the Latin Scholastic usage where it is designating human beings, and this is the very thing I addressed in the prior paragraph... But most certainly, can one discern some perfecting process in the very nature of the Cosmos? And if yes, then where?

      Are you Australian?

      Arsenios
      The reference for the quote that you asked about is Vatican Council I, Dei Filius I: DS 3003; cf. Wis 8:1; ⇒ Heb 4:13.

      Chap. 1. God, Creator of All Things
      The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself.
      This sole true God by His goodness and "omnipotent power," not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, "immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" [Lateran Council IV, can. 2 and 5]
      But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, "reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly" [cf. Wis 8:1]. For "all things are naked and open to His eyes" [Heb 4:13], even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.
      (source)
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    9. #28
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      Lateran Council IV Canon 2
      2. On the error of abbot Joachim
      We therefore condemn and reprove that small book or treatise which abbot Joachim published against master Peter Lombard concerning the unity or essence of the Trinity, in which he calls Peter Lombard a heretic and a madman because he said in his Sentences, "For there is a certain supreme reality which is the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, and it neither begets nor is begotten nor does it proceed". He asserts from this that Peter Lombard ascribes to God not so much a Trinity as a quaternity, that is to say three persons and a common essence as if this were a fourth person. Abbot Joachim clearly protests that there does not exist any reality which is the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit-neither an essence nor a substance nor a nature — although he concedes that the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit are one essence, one substance and one nature. He professes, however, that such a unity is not true and proper but rather collective and analogous, in the way that many persons are said to be one people and many faithful one church, according to that saying : Of the multitude of believers there was one heart and one mind, and Whoever adheres to God is one spirit with him; again He who plants and he who waters are one, and all of us are one body in Christ; and again in the book of Kings, My people and your people are one. In support of this opinion he especially uses the saying which Christ uttered in the gospel concerning the faithful : I wish, Father, that they may be one in us, just as we are one, so that they may be made perfect in one. For, he says, Christ's faithful are not one in the sense of a single reality which is common to all. They are one only in this sense, that they form one church through the unity of the catholic faith, and finally one kingdom through a union of indissoluble charity. Thus we read in the canonical letter of John : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father and the Word and the holy Spirit, and these three are one; and he immediately adds, And the three that bear witness on earth are the spirit, water and blood, and the three are one, according to some manuscripts.
      We, however, with the approval of this sacred and universal council, believe and confess with Peter Lombard that there exists a certain supreme reality, incomprehensible and ineffable, which truly is the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, the three persons together and each one of them separately. Therefore in God there is only a Trinity, not a quaternity, since each of the three persons is that reality — that is to say substance, essence or divine nature-which alone is the principle of all things, besides which no other principle can be found. This reality neither begets nor is begotten nor proceeds; the Father begets, the Son is begotten and the holy Spirit proceeds. Thus there is a distinction of persons but a unity of nature. Although therefore the Father is one person, the Son another person and the holy Spirit another person, they are not different realities, but rather that which is the Father is the Son and the holy Spirit, altogether the same; thus according to the orthodox and catholic faith they are believed to be consubstantial. For the Father, in begetting the Son from eternity, gave him his substance, as he himself testifies : What the Father gave me is greater than all. It cannot be said that the Father gave him part of his substance and kept part for himself since the Father's substance is indivisible, inasmuch as it is altogether simple. Nor can it be said that the Father transferred his substance to the Son, in the act of begetting, as if he gave it to the Son in such a way that he did not retain it for himself; for otherwise he would have ceased to be substance. It is therefore clear that in being begotten the Son received the Father's substance without it being diminished in any way, and thus the Father and the Son have the same substance. Thus the Father and the Son and also the holy Spirit proceeding from both are the same reality.
      When, therefore, the Truth prays to the Father for those faithful to him, saying I wish that they may be one in us just as we are one, this word one means for the faithful a union of love in grace, and for the divine persons a unity of identity in nature, as the Truth says elsewhere, You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect {2}, as if he were to say more plainly, You must be perfect in the perfection of grace, just as your Father is perfect in the perfection that is his by nature, each in his own way. For between creator and creature there can be noted no similarity so great that a greater dissimilarity cannot be seen between them. If anyone therefore ventures to defend or approve the opinion or doctrine of the aforesaid Joachim on this matter, let him be refuted by all as a heretic. By this, however, we do not intend anything to the detriment of the monastery of Fiore, which Joachim founded, because there both the instruction is according to rule and the observance is healthy; especially since Joachim ordered all his writings to be handed over to us, to be approved or corrected according to the judgment of the apostolic see. He dictated a letter, which he signed with his own hand, in which he firmly confesses that he holds the faith held by the Roman church, which is by God's plan the mother and mistress of all the faithful.
      We also reject and condemn that most perverse doctrine of the impious Amalric, whose mind the father of lies blinded to such an extent that his teaching is to be regarded as mad more than as heretical.

      Lateran Coulcil IV Canon 5.
      5. The dignity of the patriarchal sees
      Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord's disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank. Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience. They may have a standard of the Lord's cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity. In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    10. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The reference for the quote that you asked about is Vatican Council I, Dei Filius I: DS 3003; cf. Wis 8:1; ⇒ Heb 4:13.

      Chap. 1. God, Creator of All Things
      The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself.
      This sole true God by His goodness and "omnipotent power," not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, "immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" [Lateran Council IV, can. 2 and 5]
      But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, "reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly" [cf. Wis 8:1]. For "all things are naked and open to His eyes" [Heb 4:13], even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.
      (source)
      That seems eminently wholesome and true, but how does it say this that you cited it for?

      Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection,

      Which is true...

      but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator.

      This is what I am questioning...

      Quote Originally Posted by You
      The universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae)
      toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained,
      to which God has destined it.
      This is not addressed in your Vatican citation above...

      You see, God pronounced Creation to be "Very Good"...

      The "Problem" was with immature Adam who fell to sin...

      Then only did Creation fall with Adam...

      THAT is HOW important MAN is to God...

      Nothing here about the evolution of the universe in a "State of Journeying"...

      It would seem that it has been skewed by Adam's skewer-by-sin...
      And this for the sake of the correction of Adam and those in him...

      We also teach that in the Age to Come, self-authority will no longer be a factor...
      We will no longer be able to sin at all - A blessed promise!

      Arsenios

    11. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      The Creation Account is speaking about that which is prior to time...

      So I don't know if your "in other words" of "Theistic Evolution" still applies... ??

      Arsenios
      I think it does. Apparently most Christians agree, although there are those who do not.

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