• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
    Results 11 to 20 of 57

    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Grace

    1. #11
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I think it will take some time and some effort to properly digest the article, it is for the clergy and likely assumes philosophical studies that I am not so sure I have undertaken. I shall read the rest of the article with care. You may want to do the same. I may write to my bishop for clarifications if I need them.
      I will be inter

      PS: The concept of uncreated grace does not appear to be obscure.


      It may be summarised simply as "God's giving of himself"
      Well then, nothing obscure about THAT!!

      Personally, I might add, I find God's giving of Himself being given as totally obscure...

      You obviously have a clarity in which I am lacking then...

      and the incarnation and all that it encompasses is (at the very least) part of that gift.
      The Incarnation makes that Gift possible...

      Theosis is implied in the gift of incarnation.
      Why? It existed in the Old Testament too...

      I am not sure that this topic is present in Protestant theology.
      Unlike you, I am sure that it is not...

      But I have encountered Protestants who have received the Gift...

      Arsenios

    2. #12
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,574
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Cash
      22,348
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,255
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      55.25%
      Rep Power
      686
      The incarnation to which I refer is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. I do not think that is an "old testament event"
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    3. #13
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The incarnation to which I refer is the incarnation of Jesus Christ. I do not think that is an "old testament event"
      Theosis is a pre-Incarnational as well as post-Incarnation event...

      It is what Salvation in the Old Testament means...

      Moses had it...

      Paul in Hebrews give a glorious list of the giants of faith who had it...

      It is not restricted historically to the time after Christ's Incarnation...

      Christ brought something much more to His Salvation...

      So much more that He said: "The LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest of the OT Prophets..." [Please don't hold me to the exact words - But that was the idea..."

      Does the Latin Catholic Church teach the doctrine of Theosis?

      And the means of its attainment?

      Arsenios

    4. #14
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      This is from the RC Conference Papers' Catechism on Grace:
      __________________________________________________ ____________

      The nature of Actual Grace

      Actual Grace is a supernatural gift of God,
      enabling us to do something towards eternal life.
      It is supernatural, because it is a help towards happiness to which we, as creatures, can have no claim.
      It is a transient, or passing, aid, and is present in the soul only while the soul is acting.
      It is like the electric current which,
      passing for an instant through the wire wound round an iron bar,
      gives the bar a momentary magnetic power.

      Sanctifying Grace, on the other hand, is something permanent,
      and is like the electric power in a storage battery.
      Sanctifying Grace makes us friends of God,
      while Actual Grace enables us to act the part of friends.
      __________________________________________________ _____

      MC, I just bog down when I try to enter into this kind of definition...

      I mean, ACTUAL vs SANCTIFYING grace??

      Arsenios

    5. #15
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      I am really confused about this uncreated grace, created grace thing.
      I am happy to admit I have no idea what your talking about
      or what the difference is.
      The issue is the central feature of our understanding of what it is that Salvation is...
      Scripture records that we are saved by Grace through Faith...
      And that this is the Gift of God...

      So clearly it is not our faith that saves us, because if it is, then we save ourselves...
      Clearly also, we are saved by God, which no one denies...
      So when Scripture records that we are saved by Grace,
      it is saying that Grace IS God...
      The Grace that saves us through faith is the Grace of God...

      So the question then becomes, "How is God Himself the Grace of God?"

      It is unquestionable that we do not become God by God's Grace...

      But the shadow of Peter healed the sick...

      And Ananias gave sight to Paul...

      And filled him with the Holy Spirit...

      And Paul writes that the faithful have tasted in an earnest the Power of the Age to Come...

      The Historical Church has understood that while not becoming God,
      those perfected in the Faith have indeed become "Godded"...
      Indeed Moses was a god to Pharoah...
      And Christ said "It is written: 'Ye are gods,' and what is written cannot be unwritten."

      When God causes this to happen in a person, then that person, like Moses on the Mount, becomes divinized by God...
      And this phenomenon we call "Theosis"... It is common to Salvation in both the Old Testament and in the New Testament... And I should immediately add, it is NOT common at all... But it is much MORE common now than before Christ... It is not pointed to in triumph by the Church to advertise the veracity of the Orthodox Faith so as to parade living Saints about to prove us right... Indeed, these are hidden carefully... They exist... Yet we DO hold the doctrine of Theosis as a Dogma of the Faith... It is the basis of Patristic Theology and the Faith of our Fathers...

      It is quintessentially Salvation in Christ in a person's Maturation in the Faith that Christ discipled to His Apostles...

      It is the doctrine that has been lost to the West...

      As also has been the Apostolic discipling that leads to it...

      Arsenios

    6. #16
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      Supporting Member
      69
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      12,983
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      2,801
      CH Challenge
      89
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (4,085,870 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      57,074
      Level
      60
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      8.4%
      Rep Power
      593
      All I know is that grace is a wonderful gift from God and that thank God for Salvation, cutting the fine lines and all the rest I will leave to the theologans and pray that those not saved dont get to confused either, the gospel is simple and uncomplicated as it should be
      Isaiah 40:31

    7. #17
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,574
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Cash
      22,348
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,255
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      55.25%
      Rep Power
      686
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      This is from the RC Conference Papers' Catechism on Grace:
      __________________________________________________ ____________

      The nature of Actual Grace

      Actual Grace is a supernatural gift of God,
      enabling us to do something towards eternal life.
      It is supernatural, because it is a help towards happiness to which we, as creatures, can have no claim.
      It is a transient, or passing, aid, and is present in the soul only while the soul is acting.
      It is like the electric current which,
      passing for an instant through the wire wound round an iron bar,
      gives the bar a momentary magnetic power.

      Sanctifying Grace, on the other hand, is something permanent,
      and is like the electric power in a storage battery.
      Sanctifying Grace makes us friends of God,
      while Actual Grace enables us to act the part of friends.
      __________________________________________________ _____

      MC, I just bog down when I try to enter into this kind of definition...

      I mean, ACTUAL vs SANCTIFYING grace??

      Arsenios
      The contrast between "actual" and "uncreated" is not - as is the case in modern spoken English - a distinction between what is real (actual) and what is ideal (or supernatural, or eternal, etcetera). The words in English mean things that are not what the words mean in theology and especially theology that was for more than 1,500 years conducted almost exclusively in Latin. I think that the intention is to distinguish between what is event-in-time and observable-in-creation from what is God. But that turn of phrase may not help you very much. So I'll offer this and you can come back with questions - which I do not guarantee I will be able to answer.

      Human beings have notions like "existence" and "real" that are very much like "observable" and "able-to-be-experienced" or "able to be measured" with senses or with senses enhanced by instruments. The key idea here is that creatures use created things to measure and to observe and to declare "it exists". But God is not a creature so how can created things measure God, observe God, and so forth? Thinking that instruments and senses can "prove that God exists" by observing him and measuring him seems to imply that God is encompassed by "the universe" thus making God merely the greatest "being in the universe" thus making God a being contained in something greater than himself and hence making God a creature rather than the creator. This is how many atheists argue their case. They insist that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence" and by that sentence they mean that God has to be detectable by instruments or by human senses. Theology refutes this kind of thinking while at the same time acknowledging that God is able to manifest himself in creation.

      Following on from what is said above it is noteworthy that here in this created life and world as it stands today human beings do not see God face to face. But Christians rightly hope to see God face to face. Saint Paul wrote:
      1Corinthians 13:8 Love will never end. Prophecies may cease, tongues be silent and knowledge disappear. 9 For knowledge grasps something of the truth and prophecy as well. 10 And when what is perfect comes, everything imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but when I grew up, I gave up childish ways. 12 Likewise, at present, we see dimly, as in a mirror, but, then, it shall be face to face. Now, we know, in part, but then I will know as I am known. 13 Now, we have faith, hope and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love.
      The graces human beings see and experience in this world are actual grace and actual graces. They are creaturely they are created insofar as they are experienced in creation by creatures in time. Uncreated grace is not encompassed by creation and time (time is itself a creation, but somehow it seems like human beings constantly need to bring that to the fore because human beings really have no sense perception of eternity and only fairly unformed vague conceptions about eternity as long as human beings are in this life).

      Time for me to pause and sleep. It is very late here. almost 04:00.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 06-27-2018 at 10:54 PM.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    8. Likes Arsenios liked this post
    9. #18
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      All I know is that grace is a wonderful gift from God and that thank God for Salvation, cutting the fine lines and all the rest I will leave to the theologans and pray that those not saved dont get to confused either, the gospel is simple and uncomplicated as it should be
      God Bless you brother - That is all you need...

      Arsenios

    10. #19
      Arsenios's Avatar
      Arsenios is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Pacific North West
      Posts
      1,694
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      8,271
      CH Challenge
      352
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      5,743
      Level
      23
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      52.19%
      Rep Power
      122
      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The contrast between "actual" and "uncreated" is not - as is the case in modern spoken English - a distinction between what is real (actual) and what is ideal (or supernatural, or eternal, etcetera). The words in English mean things that are not what the words mean in theology and especially theology that was for more than 1,500 years conducted almost exclusively in Latin. I think that the intention is to distinguish between what is event-in-time and observable-in-creation from what is God. But that turn of phrase may not help you very much. So I'll offer this and you can come back with questions - which I do not guarantee I will be able to answer.

      Human beings have notions like "existence" and "real" that are very much like "observable" and "able-to-be-experienced" or "able to be measured" with senses or with senses enhanced by instruments. The key idea here is that creatures use created things to measure and to observe and to declare "it exists". But God is not a creature so how can created things measure God, observe God, and so forth? Thinking that instruments and senses can "prove that God exists" by observing him and measuring him seems to imply that God is encompassed by "the universe" thus making God merely the greatest "being in the universe" thus making God a being contained in something greater than himself and hence making God a creature rather than the creator. This is how many atheists argue their case. They insist that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence" and by that sentence they mean that God has to be detectable by instruments or by human senses. Theology refutes this kind of thinking while at the same time acknowledging that God is able to manifest himself in creation.

      Following on from what is said above it is noteworthy that here in this created life and world as it stands today human beings do not see God face to face. But Christians rightly hope to see God face to face. Saint Paul wrote:
      1Corinthians 13:8 Love will never end. Prophecies may cease, tongues be silent and knowledge disappear. 9 For knowledge grasps something of the truth and prophecy as well. 10 And when what is perfect comes, everything imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I thought and reasoned like a child, but when I grew up, I gave up childish ways. 12 Likewise, at present, we see dimly, as in a mirror, but, then, it shall be face to face. Now, we know, in part, but then I will know as I am known. 13 Now, we have faith, hope and love, these three, but the greatest of these is love.
      The graces human beings see and experience in this world are actual grace and actual graces. They are creaturely they are created insofar as they are experienced in creation by creatures in time. Uncreated grace is not encompassed by creation and time (time is itself a creation, but somehow it seems like human beings constantly need to bring that to the fore because human beings really have no sense perception of eternity and only fairly unformed vague conceptions about eternity as long as human beings are in this life).

      Time for me to pause and sleep. It is very late here. almost 04:00.
      You end up going to bed about the time I am getting up from bed and sleep...

      So between us, we might have things covered, I say!

      Meanwhile, what does the RCC teach about the relationship between God's providence and created grace vs uncreated grace?

      You wrote this:
      "Human beings really have no sense perception of eternity
      and only fairly unformed vague conceptions about eternity
      as long as human beings are in this life.
      "

      I want to say this to you:
      Human beings encounter Life Eternal in this life, here and now, physically...
      When that Mystery is encountered, it is encountered body and soul...
      Because man is body then soul...
      The experience of eternity is not a conception...
      It becomes memory that will not suffer explanation...
      It is an empirical even in time that will only afford description...
      It IS experienced sensually in noetic apperception...
      It will impact whoever has it given them cognitively and more...

      Original Theology is not speculation on the meaning of words written in the Bible...
      The Orthodox Church "officially" recognizes but 4 originative theologians...
      The rest are derivative from these 4...
      Yet the discipleship of the Church is for all to become so...

      Arsenios

    11. #20
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,574
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Cash
      22,348
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,255
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      55.25%
      Rep Power
      686
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      You end up going to bed about the time I am getting up from bed and sleep...

      So between us, we might have things covered, I say!

      Meanwhile, what does the RCC teach about the relationship between God's providence and created grace vs uncreated grace?
      I do not know, I could check. It isn't a matter that has interested me recently.
      V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE
      302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. the universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call "divine providence" the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
      By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, "reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well". For "all are open and laid bare to his eyes", even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161
      303 The witness of Scripture is unanimous that the solicitude of divine providence is concrete and immediate; God cares for all, from the least things to the great events of the world and its history. the sacred books powerfully affirm God's absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases."162 and so it is with Christ, "who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens".163 As the book of Proverbs states: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established."164
      304 And so we see the Holy Spirit, the principal author of Sacred Scripture, often attributing actions to God without mentioning any secondary causes. This is not a "primitive mode of speech", but a profound way of recalling God's primacy and absolute Lordship over history and the world,165 and so of educating his people to trust in him. the prayer of the Psalms is the great school of this trust.166
      305 Jesus asks for childlike abandonment to the providence of our heavenly Father who takes care of his children's smallest needs: "Therefore do not be anxious, saying, "What shall we eat?" or "What shall we drink?". . . Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well."167
      Providence and secondary causes
      306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures' co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God's greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.
      307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of "subduing" the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbours. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom.170
      308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature's dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God's power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God's grace.173
      Providence and the scandal of evil
      309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.
      310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
      311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
      For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
      312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more",179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
      313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."180 The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:
      St. Catherine of Siena said to "those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them": "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."181
      St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. and I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."182
      Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith... and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that 'all manner (of) thing shall be well.'"183
      314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God "face to face",184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.
      (source)

      You wrote this:
      "Human beings really have no sense perception of eternity
      and only fairly unformed vague conceptions about eternity
      as long as human beings are in this life.
      "

      I want to say this to you:
      Human beings encounter Life Eternal in this life, here and now, physically...
      When that Mystery is encountered, it is encountered body and soul...
      Because man is body then soul...
      The experience of eternity is not a conception...
      It becomes memory that will not suffer explanation...
      It is an empirical even in time that will only afford description...
      It IS experienced sensually in noetic apperception...
      It will impact whoever has it given them cognitively and more...

      Original Theology is not speculation on the meaning of words written in the Bible...
      The Orthodox Church "officially" recognizes but 4 originative theologians...
      The rest are derivative from these 4...
      Yet the discipleship of the Church is for all to become so...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 06-28-2018 at 04:20 PM.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •