Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned much?

psalms 91 said:

While I dont have titles on hand at the moment I am sure any search on a site like Christian Book Distributors could turn up many books that would oppose his view. You see, most books are written with the denominational slant that they are taught so no I dont necessarily acccept them as accurate. I do look at movements like the Brownsville revival, the Toronto blessing, Azuza street and I look at what made them great and what transpired and then I see how God works. So yes, I will stack my beliefs against his any day.

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Alright, so the person acknowledged as North America's greatest theologian and through whom God bought one of the greatest revivals on the planet is summarily dismissed by you without ever reading what he wrote. Meanwhile you look at other minor revivals in awe of what you believe God has done.
It is clear that you have a view of the Holy Spirit that you will defend to the death...even if it isn't biblically supported.
This thread could be about the role and function of the Holy Spirit, but instead we're stuck on the meaningless issue of tongues, which is a miniscule function of the Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible tell us about the Holy Spirit and His role as a person of the Trinity?

MennoSota said:

Alright, so the person acknowledged as North America's greatest theologian and through whom God bought one of the greatest revivals on the planet is summarily dismissed by you without ever reading what he wrote. Meanwhile you look at other minor revivals in awe of what you believe God has done.
It is clear that you have a view of the Holy Spirit that you will defend to the death...even if it isn't biblically supported.
This thread could be about the role and function of the Holy Spirit, but instead we're stuck on the meaningless issue of tongues, which is a miniscule function of the Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible tell us about the Holy Spirit and His role as a person of the Trinity?

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Where in scripture does God say that prophecy ceased? What date did this happen at? What other gifts of the Holy Spirit has God also changed his mind about and where does scripture innumerate this list? Has the God who is the same yesterday, today and forever really changed his mind? Where does that leave the verses where God says that he is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should change his mind?

atpollard said:

Where in scripture does God say that prophecy ceased? What date did this happen at? What other gifts of the Holy Spirit has God also changed his mind about and where does scripture innumerate this list? Has the God who is the same yesterday, today and forever really changed his mind? Where does that leave the verses where God says that he is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should change his mind?

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I don't believe prophesy has ceased. I believe that today's prophets forth tell God's word from scripture, speaking God's word into specific circumstances. I do not see them being given a fore telling of new revelation. God has revealed all we need to know.
If there were any need to show such a sign, it would only be in areas where the gospel has never been spoken and demons are controlling an area.
What we see in the US is mostly charlatans pimping themselves.

MennoSota said:

God spoke in His word. It finished with the Apostles.
Mohammed claimed to receive a word from God. Joseph Smith claimed to receive a word from God. False prophet after false prophet has claimed an extraordinary word from God (as if God's Word in the Bible isn't sufficient).
I have been to many churches that promote speaking in tongues as evidence of being filled with the Spirit. In none of those churches did the leader stop and require an interpretation of the many people babbling in the service. I've seen people flopping in the aisle and wiggling around as they babble away. Honestly, it looks and feels like demon possession to me. The person calls attention to themselves in a display of "look at me being spiritual."
What value is tongues in private? A persin has no clue what s/he is saying to God so s/he can't even have a unity with the Spirit. It's all just for that person to feel prideful about some experience that doesn't require faith. Literally anyone can imitate it and no one would be the wiser. In fact, the others would be impressed with how "spiritual" the person is.
The Holy Spirit doesn't function that way. Look into God's word and see how the Spirit works from Genesis 1 to Revelation. His role is so much greater than babbling people claiming to be Spirit filled.

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I think a key difference here is the audience for something that might be a prophetic word from God.

I see no reason why God shouldn't speak through one person to another. If I knew you in real life perhaps one of us might approach the other with a message like "you know, I think God might be saying that...." with the expectation that the other would prayerfully consider it. Or maybe one of us would say something to the other totally unaware that the other had been considering the possibility they were called in a particular way, thereby allowing God to speak through us without us necessarily even knowing it was happening. Key things to note are the assumption a word presented as prophetic would be tested, and the fact that the word would be utterly irrelevant to anyone else. If I thought God was calling you to be a missionary to Bangkok and you rejected what I had to say, it wouldn't be appropriate to present the same message to an endless line of people until someone accepted it and thereby affirmed a prophetic gifting. Because it would be irrelevant to anyone else it would be absurd to suggest the canon of Scripture be reopened so it could be recorded.

Where some of the more prolific false prophets are concerned, particularly the ones that act as if they have a new message from God for the entire church, a recurring theme seems to be a lot of mix-n-match theology. Lots of grand claims of angelic visitations, lots of implication (if not outright expectation) that the mantle of prophet requires obedience (as in OT times) mixed with the lack of accountability of NT times. If God truly has spoken a new message to the worldwide church then logically the canon of Scripture should be reopened to include it. Before doing so the word should be tested to ensure it truly is from God, which is where so many self-proclaimed prophets fall down.

psalms 91 said:

While I dont have titles on hand at the moment I am sure any search on a site like Christian Book Distributors could turn up many books that would oppose his view. You see, most books are written with the denominational slant that they are taught so no I dont necessarily acccept them as accurate. I do look at movements like the Brownsville revival, the Toronto blessing, Azuza street and I look at what made them great and what transpired and then I see how God works. So yes, I will stack my beliefs against his any day.

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Toronto seems to me to have unleashed a wave of kooky theology upon the world. The closest parallel I can find in Scripture to people acting like animals is when Nebuchadnezzar fell from favor and ate grass like oxen. I never could work out how people wriggling around like snakes was interpreted as a great move of God.

MennoSota said:

I don't believe prophesy has ceased. I believe that today's prophets forth tell God's word from scripture, speaking God's word into specific circumstances. I do not see them being given a fore telling of new revelation. God has revealed all we need to know.
If there were any need to show such a sign, it would only be in areas where the gospel has never been spoken and demons are controlling an area.
What we see in the US is mostly charlatans pimping themselves.

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What we see is the high profile stuff, the so-called "prophets" of garbage sites like The Elijah List who spout their usual drivel and never seem to worry that their "prophecies" seldom if ever come to pass.

Of course the higher profile a "prophecy" is given the more chance it has of scoring a "hit". If I ask if you have a bad back there's a fair chance you'll say no. If I have an audience of a dozen and ask if someone has a bad back the chances rise. If I'm on stage in front of 20,000 and gush about how the Spirit has revealed to me there is someone with a bad back the chances are almost 100% that at least one person will come forward. The charlatan can rely on the placebo effect to generate at least some improvement in a condition like that after prayer. When the temporary benefit from suggestion fades the fanfare is over and if anything is ever said they get to do a bit of victim-blaming because the person obviously didn't have enough faith to "keep their healing".

Sad to say the kooks and charlatans give everything else a bad name.

psalms 91 said:

I think God cvan sort that out and deal with those whoabuse it also we should be able to discern what is genuine, we have the Holy Spirit do we not and He leads us into all truth which also means He will show us falsehood

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I'm sure God will show us falsehood but wouldn't be surprised to find we're expected to do some of it ourselves. Like, for example, if a teacher is teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches we might be well advised to not follow them rather than assume God will give us a "check in our spirit" or some other vaguely defined sign that something is wrong. Or maybe we'll get some indication that something isn't right as a prompt to look into it more closely.

Two examples from personal experience. One related to a teacher by the name of Brent Engelman. The hypercharismatic church I attended for a while raved about his "prophetic activation training" (whatever that means). When I asked about the ways he directly contradicted Scripture nobody gave me an answer beyond how they didn't get any sense of anything wrong so they were going ahead with it. The other was a video featuring Rodney Howard-Browne (the so-called Holy Ghost Bartender - take from that nickname what you will). I didn't even make it to 5 minutes of watching him before it was disturbing me so badly I couldn't stand to even stay in the room. So I left the room and checked him out, and soon figured that I was probably well advised to give him a wide berth.

tango said:

What we see is the high profile stuff, the so-called "prophets" of garbage sites like The Elijah List who spout their usual drivel and never seem to worry that their "prophecies" seldom if ever come to pass.

Of course the higher profile a "prophecy" is given the more chance it has of scoring a "hit". If I ask if you have a bad back there's a fair chance you'll say no. If I have an audience of a dozen and ask if someone has a bad back the chances rise. If I'm on stage in front of 20,000 and gush about how the Spirit has revealed to me there is someone with a bad back the chances are almost 100% that at least one person will come forward. The charlatan can rely on the placebo effect to generate at least some improvement in a condition like that after prayer. When the temporary benefit from suggestion fades the fanfare is over and if anything is ever said they get to do a bit of victim-blaming because the person obviously didn't have enough faith to "keep their healing".

Sad to say the kooks and charlatans give everything else a bad name.

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Here's how I see the gift of prophesy being active in the church today.
A person with the gift of prophesy can sit with an individual or in a meeting and hear what is being said and the questions that are being raised. That person will ruminate on what is being said and will speak God's word from scripture into that conversation. The message of scripture is clear and the hearer or hearers recognize what God desires of them because the person exercising the gift of prophesy pointed them toward God and God's word. It is forth-telling God's word into a situation. It brings an "aha" moment to the conversation.
The struggle that a person, given the gift of prophesy, has is that it bothers them to see brothers and sisters not discern God's will from the scriptures. They can come across as harsh and strongly opinionated. They can find themselves isolated and unable to enjoy mainstream Christianity without being concerned. They can ultimately be viewed by the body as someone who nitpicks. It can be lonely to have the gift of prophesy.
At least that's how I see the gift manifest today. There is no need for a brand new revelation. God has shared enough in scripture.

From the New City Catechism: Who is the Holy Spirit?

Augustine of Hippo

Wherefore, when our Lord breathed on His disciples, and said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost,” He certainly wished it to be understood that the Holy Ghost was not only the Spirit of the Father, but of the only begotten Son Himself. For the same Spirit is, indeed, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, making with them the trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit, not a creature, but the Creator.

Sam Storms

Rarely does a Christian struggle to think of God as Father. And to envision God as Son is not a problem for many. These personal names come easily to us because our lives and relationships are inescapably intertwined with fathers and sons here on earth. But God as Holy Spirit is often a different matter. Gordon Fee tells of one of his students who remarked, “God the Father makes perfectly good sense to me, and God the Son I can quite understand; but the Holy Spirit is a gray, oblong blur.”
How different this is from what we actually read in Scripture. There we see that the Spirit is not third in rank in the Godhead but is coequal and coeternal with the Father and Son, sharing with them all the glory and honor due unto our triune God. The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal power or an ethereal, abstract energy. The Spirit is personal in every sense of the term. He has a mind and thinks (Isa. 11:2; Rom. 8:27). He is capable of experiencing deep affections and feelings (Rom. 8:26; 15:30). The Spirit has a will and makes choices regarding what is best for God’s people and what will most glorify the Son (Acts 16:7; 1 Cor. 2:11).
We see even more of the Spirit’s personality when he is described as being grieved when we sin (Eph. 4:30). The Spirit, no less so than the Father and the Son, enters into a vibrant and intimate relationship with all whom he indwells (2 Cor. 13:14). The Spirit talks (Mark 13:11; Rev. 2:7), testifies (John 15:26; 16:13) encourages (Acts 9:31), strengthens (Eph. 3:16), and teaches us, especially in times of spiritual emergency (Luke 12:12). That the Spirit is personal is seen in that he can be lied to (Acts 5:3), insulted (Heb. 10:29), and even blasphemed (Matt. 12:31–32).
Above all else, though, the Holy Spirit is the “Spirit of Christ” (Rom. 8:9). His primary role in us, the temple of God in whom he dwells (Eph. 2:21–22), is other-directed or other-oriented as he ministers to direct our attention to the person of Christ and to awaken in us heartfelt affection for and devotion to the Savior (John 14:26; 16:12–15). The Holy Spirit delights above all else in serving as a spotlight, standing behind us (although certainly dwelling within us) to focus our thoughts and meditation on the beauty of Christ and all that God is for us in and through him.
As we prayerfully meditate on the person and work of the Spirit and give thanks for his powerful presence in our lives, we would do well to consider the words of Thomas Torrance, who reminds us that “the Spirit is not just something divine or something akin to God emanating from him, not some sort of action at a distance or some kind of gift detachable from himself, for in the Holy Spirit God acts directly upon us himself, and in giving us his Holy Spirit God gives us nothing less than himself.”

How does the Holy Spirit help us?
John Owen

The Holy Spirit dwelling in us gives guidance and direction. Fundamentally, habitually, he enlightens our minds, give us eyes, understandings, shines into us, translates us from darkness into marvelous light, whereby we are able to see our way, to know our paths, and to discern the things of God. . . . He gives a new light and understanding, whereby, in general, we are enabled to “discern, comprehend, and receive spiritual things.” . . . Strength comes as well as light, by the pouring out of the Spirit on us; strength for the receiving and practice of all his gracious discoveries to us. . . . From this indwelling of the Spirit we have supportment. Our hearts are very ready to sink and fail under our trials; indeed, a little thing will cause us so to do: flesh, and heart, and all that is within us, are soon ready to fail. . . . The Spirit helpeth, bears up that infirmity which is ready to make us go double.

Leo Schuster

I’ve always been struck by Jesus’s words: “Apart from me you can do nothing.” They are a humbling and refreshing reminder that our need, from first to last, isn’t partial, but total. By giving us the Holy Spirit, Christ has given us all we need and more, from first to last. The Holy Spirit gives us life. He fills our life and points us to the One who is life. He gives us life in that our starting point is not simply that we’re spiritually needy, but that we are dead in sin. Our spiritual life begins when the Holy Spirit regenerates us, giving us new life. When he turns our heart of stone into a heart of flesh, he makes the truth of God’s Word real to us, and we freely embrace Christ as he’s offered to us in the gospel. This reminds us that being a Christian isn’t about being a better person but about being a new person, by God’s grace alone, through faith alone.
Not only does he give us life, but he also fills our life. When we become Christians, God the Father adopts us as his children and gives to us his Spirit of adoption. He comes to live in us and fill us, and in doing so he guides us as a counselor would—supporting, convicting us of our sin, strengthening us in Christ, encouraging us in the way we should live, helping us to pray, and even praying for us when we’re too weak to do so ourselves. In all this, he grows us in Christlikeness, enabling us to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. And he gives us specific gifts to use to contribute to the building up of the body of Christ, and to love, serve, and obey God.
So he gives us life. He fills our life. And finally, he points us to the One who is life. Jesus said, “[The Spirit] will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you” (John 16:14). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. He doesn’t draw attention to himself but glorifies Jesus and gives us the grace to do the same, making him who is life our life and love. So the One who is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, has given us his Spirit to supply all we need from first to last. He gives us life, fills our life, and points us to the One who is life.

George said:

One thing I’ve noticed in Evangelical churches is the lack of the mentioning of the Holy Spirit as much as the Father or the Son. This thought is brought on since a Bible someone I know criticized Eastern Orthodoxy for focusing more on the Holy Spirit than Jesus which doesn’t make sense because the Holy Trinity is 3 in one.

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I read this on "Crosswalk" this morning (Evangelical Central!) which seems to answer your question pretty well:

The simple reason for this is that Christ is Trinity-centered, right in the middle of the Trinity as the Son sent by the Father and filled with the Spirit. If you focus on Jesus properly, you will find yourself necessarily focusing on the Trinity—as long as you don't focus on Jesus in a Father-forgetful or Spirit-ignoring way.
https://www.crosswalk.com/slideshows/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-trinity.html?p=9

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I suppose that they (or the writer sees, anyway) some essential "unity" of Persons in Christ - or that's how I'm reading it. But then if Christ is "Trinity centered", then how is one "Father-forgetful and Spirit-ignoring" in that context? I love 'Crosswalk'...:thinking:

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Why isn’t the Holy Spirit mentioned much?

One thing I’ve noticed in Evangelical churches is the lack of the mentioning of the Holy Spirit as much as the Father or the Son. This thought is brought on since a Bible someone I know criticized Eastern Orthodoxy for focusing more on the Holy Spirit than Jesus which doesn’t make sense because the Holy Trinity is 3 in one.

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I really think that George has answered his own question.

If it is OK for Eastern Orthodoxy to focus more on the Holy Spirit than Jesus (as some claim), seeing that the Holy Trinity is 3 in one, then why is it deemed somehow questionable that Evangelical churches focus on the Father and the Son (as is also claimed), seeing that the Holy Trinity is 3 in one?

Am I missing something?

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