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    Christian Discussion - No Debate - Thread: (No Debate) What things would make you leave your church?

    1. #11
      tango's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Are there things that would give you reason to leave your church? Or things that have already caused you to leave one?
      I've left a church twice, for two very different reasons.

      The first time I left a church it was reluctantly but because I was moving out of the area, far enough that ongoing attendance was no longer an option. I still stay in contact with that church and technically I think I'm still a member.

      The second time I left a church it was because it was riddled with toxic theology. They preached a message of prosperity but couldn't pay their bills, they preached guaranteed healing in Christ but suffered just as much sickness as anywhere else, they spoke endlessly of the revival they were convinced was coming despite steadily falling attendance, and every which way I turned there was more and more bad theology from places like Bethel, more and more following of false prophets, more and more butchering of Scripture to make it say something it was never meant to say and so on. If something didn't align with Scripture that didn't cause any problems there, if it directly contradicted Scripture nobody seemed to care because apparently it "felt right" to them (whatever that means). During their regular "open mic" times there was a guy there who would preach his own mini-sermons that often ignored or butchered Scripture, and when he said something along the lines of "yeah, yeah, I know what the Bible says but I met a guy in an elevator who told me...." I had a couple of long discussions with the minister to express my concerns and it gradually became clear nothing was going to change. One of the council members was concerned about why I was leaving so I expressed my concerns to her and explained how I thought the teachers they were following were building the kingdom of the antichrist. Sadly she was too busy to address my concerns, or even to reply to the email she asked me to send her. There's no way I can stay at a church that causes me that level of theological concern where they won't even answer my questions.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      I've left a church twice, for two very different reasons.

      The first time I left a church it was reluctantly but because I was moving out of the area, far enough that ongoing attendance was no longer an option. I still stay in contact with that church and technically I think I'm still a member.

      The second time I left a church it was because it was riddled with toxic theology. They preached a message of prosperity but couldn't pay their bills, they preached guaranteed healing in Christ but suffered just as much sickness as anywhere else, they spoke endlessly of the revival they were convinced was coming despite steadily falling attendance, and every which way I turned there was more and more bad theology from places like Bethel, more and more following of false prophets, more and more butchering of Scripture to make it say something it was never meant to say and so on. If something didn't align with Scripture that didn't cause any problems there, if it directly contradicted Scripture nobody seemed to care because apparently it "felt right" to them (whatever that means). During their regular "open mic" times there was a guy there who would preach his own mini-sermons that often ignored or butchered Scripture, and when he said something along the lines of "yeah, yeah, I know what the Bible says but I met a guy in an elevator who told me...." I had a couple of long discussions with the minister to express my concerns and it gradually became clear nothing was going to change. One of the council members was concerned about why I was leaving so I expressed my concerns to her and explained how I thought the teachers they were following were building the kingdom of the antichrist. Sadly she was too busy to address my concerns, or even to reply to the email she asked me to send her. There's no way I can stay at a church that causes me that level of theological concern where they won't even answer my questions.
      I understand what you're saying on a lot of that. Having seen some of your questions I do also realize that sometimes you insist you're being ignored when the answer was already given to you. Oftentimes the way a question is posed can be viewed as an attack. Could your question have been taken that way by those at the church you left...possibly viewed in such a way that they knew answering you would not have satisfied you?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I understand what you're saying on a lot of that. Having seen some of your questions I do also realize that sometimes you insist you're being ignored when the answer was already given to you. Oftentimes the way a question is posed can be viewed as an attack. Could your question have been taken that way by those at the church you left...possibly viewed in such a way that they knew answering you would not have satisfied you?
      I asked the minister and the council member to correct me if I was wrong - I said to them that it was clear that either they were badly wrong, or I was badly wrong. If they were wrong they needed to change direction urgently, and if I was wrong I needed correcting urgently. They did nothing - they didn't explain why they believed their actions aligned with Scripture, they didn't explain why they thought my points lacked merit, the only acknowledgement I got from the council member that she'd even received the email (that she asked me to send) was that she had been too busy preparing a newsletter to answer it.

      Hence my conclusion was pretty much decided for me. Either the church was following fatally flawed theology, in which case their refusal to change course meant they weren't fit to be a church. Or they didn't care about me enough to correct me, even in private, even after I'd asked them to correct me if I was wrong, in which case they aren't a church I can attend.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Did you find a new church to attend?
      No, since I had been working 12 to 13 hours 6 days a week I find Sunday mornings the only time to rest my feet before catching up on house duties...
      I got terminated so perhaps I can start my search soon.

    5. #15
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      I asked the minister and the council member to correct me if I was wrong - I said to them that it was clear that either they were badly wrong, or I was badly wrong. If they were wrong they needed to change direction urgently, and if I was wrong I needed correcting urgently. They did nothing - they didn't explain why they believed their actions aligned with Scripture, they didn't explain why they thought my points lacked merit, the only acknowledgement I got from the council member that she'd even received the email (that she asked me to send) was that she had been too busy preparing a newsletter to answer it.

      Hence my conclusion was pretty much decided for me. Either the church was following fatally flawed theology, in which case their refusal to change course meant they weren't fit to be a church. Or they didn't care about me enough to correct me, even in private, even after I'd asked them to correct me if I was wrong, in which case they aren't a church I can attend.
      Did you really tell them that they were badly wrong or you were? Can you see how you put them on the defense? How long did you give them to reply?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    6. #16
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      No, since I had been working 12 to 13 hours 6 days a week I find Sunday mornings the only time to rest my feet before catching up on house duties...
      I got terminated so perhaps I can start my search soon.
      That's understandable! Work hard while you're young and have the energy. My daughter works 7 days a week most weeks and I'm amazed she can have energy to still do a lot of other projects and go out to events. I guess I was the same way when I was her age though.

      You can probably do some good networking at church to see if anyone is hiring! Try a new church next Sunday and ease your way in
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    8. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Did you really tell them that they were badly wrong or you were? Can you see how you put them on the defense? How long did you give them to reply?
      This was in the context of a number of questions I'd been discussing with them, and it became clear that one of us was badly wrong. How can it be anything else, when a church thinks it is building God's kingdom and I think they are building the devil's kingdom? If I was so badly wrong that I was calling good evil and calling evil good I wanted to be corrected, and would still want to be corrected. Sadly the minister and council appeared to have no interest in talking.

      My discussions with the minister covered more than I really care to recount on a forum. I would have thought that leaders of a church would be able to justify what they were doing with Scripture. Maybe it does make people defensive but if you can't explain how what you're doing doesn't fly in the face of Scripture I'd say that's a pretty big concern, wouldn't you?

      The email I sent was nearly three years ago. I think that's more than long enough to reply. It was about three months after I sent the email that I concluded I was unlikely to ever get a response.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    9. #18
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      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      This was in the context of a number of questions I'd been discussing with them, and it became clear that one of us was badly wrong. How can it be anything else, when a church thinks it is building God's kingdom and I think they are building the devil's kingdom? If I was so badly wrong that I was calling good evil and calling evil good I wanted to be corrected, and would still want to be corrected. Sadly the minister and council appeared to have no interest in talking.

      My discussions with the minister covered more than I really care to recount on a forum. I would have thought that leaders of a church would be able to justify what they were doing with Scripture. Maybe it does make people defensive but if you can't explain how what you're doing doesn't fly in the face of Scripture I'd say that's a pretty big concern, wouldn't you?

      The email I sent was nearly three years ago. I think that's more than long enough to reply. It was about three months after I sent the email that I concluded I was unlikely to ever get a response.
      I think if you were telling them that they were building the devil's kingdom that your approach was a little off putting and who would want to listen to someone saying that? Thinking it is one thing and asking legitimate questions is good as long as they aren't baited or done in hostile emotion. Communication is between two parties and not just one person telling the other they're wrong.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    10. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I think if you were telling them that they were building the devil's kingdom that your approach was a little off putting and who would want to listen to someone saying that? Thinking it is one thing and asking legitimate questions is good as long as they aren't baited or done in hostile emotion. Communication is between two parties and not just one person telling the other they're wrong.
      You'd need to know more of the history with the church for it to be relevant.

      I would hope that a church would be able to explain why someone making an allegation like mine was wrong. You know, maybe a verse or two from Scripture to cover what they were doing?

      My questions weren't asked in hostile emotion. I wanted to understand why the church was doing what it was doing because I couldn't see how they could support it in Scripture and the more I looked for answers the greater my concerns grew.

      At the most basic the minister couldn't even explain why he wrenched Job 22:28 out of context to justify people declaring things expecting them to come to pass beyond a vague idea he wanted to encourage people. I'm sure people were encouraged when their declarations didn't come to pass. When I asked why he didn't look to encourage people with a promise God made he didn't answer.

      I know what communication is, but thanks for the lesson.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    11. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      You'd need to know more of the history with the church for it to be relevant.

      I would hope that a church would be able to explain why someone making an allegation like mine was wrong. You know, maybe a verse or two from Scripture to cover what they were doing?

      My questions weren't asked in hostile emotion. I wanted to understand why the church was doing what it was doing because I couldn't see how they could support it in Scripture and the more I looked for answers the greater my concerns grew.

      At the most basic the minister couldn't even explain why he wrenched Job 22:28 out of context to justify people declaring things expecting them to come to pass beyond a vague idea he wanted to encourage people. I'm sure people were encouraged when their declarations didn't come to pass. When I asked why he didn't look to encourage people with a promise God made he didn't answer.

      I know what communication is, but thanks for the lesson.
      I think you might have been in a Pentecostal church and the reasoning behind this is call those things that arent as though they are , joined with faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. The rick to this is that it has to be Gods will for that person or no amount of saying it is so will get you anywhere.
      Isaiah 40:31

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