• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 26

    Christian Theology - Thread: Should Teachings be Accountable?

    1. #1
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,398
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      115,159
      CH Challenge
      232
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      65,778
      Level
      63
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      33.81%
      Rep Power
      892

      Question Should Teachings be Accountable?

      '

      A fundamental discussion ......


      RELATIVISM.


      This came into Christianity with the Enlightenment and has become very, very popular. It is the core value of most "Christian" Internet forums.


      The fundamental affirmation of relativism is that all we have are OPINIONS, human OPINIONS. Nothing more (nothing less). No one knows which (if any) is true. Some hold that it doesn't matter which is true in some objective sense, only what is true to YOU (felt by you at this moment) and what works for YOU (relativism and pragmatism often joined these days), but relativism in its most extreme form claims that there is no such thing as true (and thus false) in some universal, objective sense.

      Those with the core value of relativism seek OPINIONS. Individual, personal OPINIONS. All protected from those who think one opinion is any better or has any more worth than any other. Someone has the opinion that President Trump has a low IQ just holds that view (it absolutely doesn't matter if Trump does or not) One holds that the Earth is flat and square and small, that's his OPINION. We're all free to have our OWN opinions. And all of them are equally valid. And you can accept that President Trump has an IQ of 75 if that's what you want to do, or not if that's what you want, it doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't, opinions matter.

      Phil Donohue makes some statement (entirely irrelevant whether there's a bit of truth in it cuz there is no truth) then runs up to one person in the audience who says whatever their opinion is (doesn't matter) and Phil goes, "WOW! Mind blowing!" Then runs up to someone else with another opinion (doesn't matter what) and Phil goes, "WOW! Amazing!" And on and on and on it goes. All protected. Relativism.


      Is this Christian? When God gave the Ten Commandments, was He just sharing his personal opinion at the moment, nothing based in truthfulness? Could Phil run up to one Hebrew at Mount Sinai and say, "What do you think of that?" And the person could say ANYTHING that pops into his brain at that moment and Phil would say, "WOW! Brilliant!" Relativism - just unaccountable opinions.



      Are we to just swallow the opinions of others?

      Are all opinions equal?

      Does truth actually exist?

      Does it matter?

      To God?

      Should it to us?



      Should the zillions of various and often conflicting OPINIONS that may suddenly spring from the mouths of the 7.5 billion people on the planet (or 2.2 billion Christians on the planet) just all be embraced cuz they are OPINIONS?

      Is it possible to be wrong?

      Is falsehood just swell if it's an opinion of some guy at this moment?

      Is it more loving and more Christian to empower false, harmful teachings or to correct them?

      What did the Prophets in OT think about that?

      What did Jesus think about that?



      Were the early Christians wrong to reject Gnosticism (and thus keep the church from GREATLY growing in numbers with their welcome; the church could have doubled over night)?

      Were the early Christians wrong to reject Arianism (and thus cause many to leave the church and the church shrunk mightily as a result?

      Was Luther wrong to post the 95 Thesis? He should have equally welcomed ALL opinions just the same cuz truth doesn't exist or matter if it does?



      Let's say Our Savior Catholic Church in San Francisco FEELS it has a problem, because it is not growing FAST ENOUGH and a few think the problem is that some of the positions of the Catholic Church are difficult to the community around them. Would it be good policy for Our Savior Catholic Church to declare that the RCC has the "right to their opinion" but it doesn't matter, and those in the community have a right to THEIR personal opinion - and whatever is your opinion is your opinion and all that matters, golly geeze. So, it eliminates all statements about sin and wrong and adultery and same-gender marriage because those are OPINIONS and no one has any "right" to insist theirs is more right than any other. Maybe Our Saviors will grow.... maybe not..... but do you think possible growth "justifies" it's dumping of truth for relativism?



      Does truth matter?

      Is there a LOVING and CHRISTIAN basis to accountabillity and correction? Or should Christians just welcome anything - as long as it's an opinion - because truth doesn't matter, even if it exists, just opinions? Or is it more loving, more Christian to welcome falsehood, even heresy? Was Jesus wrong to reject the opinion of the Pharisees? Was Isaiah wrong to reject the opinion of the rulers?



      Is it loving and Christian to shut up or speak up?




      What does Scripture say
      for those who think God's opinion matters more than any other:



      Where there is wrong behavior
      :

      Matthew 18:15, ff

      Galatians 6:1-2

      1 Timothy 5:20

      James 5:20

      Luke 17:3-4



      Importance of sound doctrine and repudiation of relativism:

      Titus 1:9

      Jude 3

      Philippians 1:27

      1 Corinthians 15:3-4

      Ephesians 4:15


      Need to correct false teaching/teachers:

      Titus 1:13

      Titus 3:10

      Jude 4

      2 Timothy 4:9-10

      2 Timothy 1:15

      1 Timothy 1:18-20

      Ephesians 5:11-14


      Need to avoid false teachers
      :

      2 John 9-11

      Romans 16:17-18


      Speaking the truth, in love:

      Ephesians 4:15

      1 Corinthians 4:1






      What is your core value, Relativism or Truth?




      - Josiah




      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 06-09-2018 at 05:39 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. #2
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,663
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,151
      CH Challenge
      84
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,989
      Level
      35
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      34.26%
      Rep Power
      426
      Honestly, this looks like a veiled way to complain that your not going to be allowed to debate others in another part of the forum.

      Truth is truth. You already know that. No need to start a thread about it

    3. Likes davedajobauk, psalms 91 liked this post
    4. #3
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,398
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      115,159
      CH Challenge
      232
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      65,778
      Level
      63
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      33.81%
      Rep Power
      892
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      Truth is truth. You already know that.
      Is it?

      Do people - even Christians - actually affirm that? Or has relativism infected, like a cancer, and become the new norm?

      I think I ask a lot of VERY IMPORTANT questions.

      You can ignore them or regard them as trivial, meaningless, irrelevant opinions (for whatever reasons you have), but I think they are critical.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    5. #4
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,663
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,151
      CH Challenge
      84
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,989
      Level
      35
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      34.26%
      Rep Power
      426
      The question itself isn't trivial. I just find it curious that it would come up now when a new area of the forum just started where debate isn't allowed.

      Relativism has without a doubt infected the church in many areas. Especially when people don't tend to read and study the Word of God like they should. Maybe that is why they don't. I'm not sure

    6. Likes davedajobauk liked this post
    7. #5
      davedajobauk is offline Apprentice Member
      Widow/Widower
      retired
       
      Mood:
      Embarrassed
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Location
      seeking Heaven
      Posts
      207
      Country
      UK
      CH Cash
      2,422
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      481
      Level
      7
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      90.12%
      Rep Power
      6
      How many 'questions' in a plain-wrapper ?

      Should Opinions be Accountable?

      No, they are 'ONLY OPINIONS'

      opinion = personal conclusions / considerations then being-expressed

      THEY ARE NOT INSTRUCTIONS / LAW
      But they ARE additional-thoughts, on the subject at-hand, from another's perspective (?)


      Having an opinion on biblical text, IS (according to you) "NOT THE WORD OF GOD"
      but a view of the word's meaning
      Just, another's view, of that text

      Literal-reading of such texts, has caused confusions ~as to their meaning

      It is NOT as if the 'subject-matter' is secular ?

      dave
      Isaiah 40:31
      Ecclesiastes 3

    8. Likes Josiah liked this post
    9. #6
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      741
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,525
      CH Challenge
      48
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      3,962
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      3.21%
      Rep Power
      109

      Should Teachings be Accountable?


      They already are.


      In Godís eyes.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    10. #7
      Cassia's Avatar
      Cassia is offline Veteran Member
      Supporting Member
      ~~~
       
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2016
      Posts
      1,607
      Country
      Canada
      CH Cash
      3,761
      CH Challenge
      13
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (14,332 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,525
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      47.46%
      Rep Power
      237
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      The question itself isn't trivial. I just find it curious that it would come up now when a new area of the forum just started where debate isn't allowed.

      Relativism has without a doubt infected the church in many areas. Especially when people don't tend to read and study the Word of God like they should. Maybe that is why they don't. I'm not sure
      What forum is that?
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

    11. #8
      jsimms435's Avatar
      jsimms435 is offline Expert Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      2,663
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      4,151
      CH Challenge
      84
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      14,989
      Level
      35
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      34.26%
      Rep Power
      426
      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      What forum is that?
      the new "Christian Discussion No Debate" section that just started on this forum.

    12. #9
      tango's Avatar
      tango is offline Bronze Member
      Valued Contributor
      Supporting Member
      Married
      ... and you shall live ...
       
      Mood:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Location
      Elsewhere
      Posts
      6,224
      CH Cash
      2,667
      CH Challenge
      31
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (4,594,090 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      28,341
      Level
      45
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      81.89%
      Rep Power
      707
      Without quoting the opening post in its entirety....

      Opinions are equally valid. In my opinion mint chocolate chip ice cream is nicer than cookies and cream. That's my opinion and it's no more and no less valid than anyone else's opinion. You might prefer vanilla or butter pecan or whatever else, and your opinion is no more and no less valid than mine. There is no objective truth of which ice cream flavor is the best and therefore all we have is opinion.

      Sometimes opinions are essentially value judgments even if they are veiled to an extent. The question of whether society would be better off if guns were banned is a classic example. If guns are banned we might hope that school shootings would cease, or at least be massively reduced, so there's an obvious benefit. The trouble is that it would also mean more people suffering from crime because they would have no means to protect themselves. So one side essentially says that more victims of home invasions is an acceptable price to pay in the quest to make schools safer, and the other side says that a relatively small number of children being shot in school is an acceptable price to pay for the right to protect oneself. Of course neither side words their case in quite such brutal terms, and needless to say the complexities mean it's not as trivially simple as this, but essentially those are the options. Which is better is a matter of opinion, and opinions shift at times of raw emotion - someone whose child narrowly escaped death in a school shooting yesterday will have a very different focus to someone who was saved from a brutal death because they were able to draw their firearm and kill their would-be attacker.

      Sometimes we have opinions on something where an absolute truth exists but is difficult or impossible to determine. For example, when Genesis refers to God making everything in six days does it mean a literal 144 hours as we would understand it today, or six broadly comparable periods of time that might have been hundreds of thousands of years each, or something else? We might study the Scriptures, try and understand the ancient Hebrew (which doesn't appear to translate into a nice neat "In the beginning God created"), and form an opinion. We can discuss those opinions, from a perspective of trying to convince each other that our view is the correct one or trying to understand multiple viewpoints to look for strengths and weaknesses of each one. There is only one objective truth but we may never actually find out what it is.

      Then there are things where core facts may not be disputed but methods may be. There is no dispute that 1Th5:21 urges us to test all things but we might discuss endlessly how best to test. Some would seek to validate everything against Scripture, others look for some kind of inner guidance. Some accept all sorts of garbage because it "didn't cause any checks in their spirit" while others reject everything out of hand if they don't understand it. People might not dispute the call to test but consider that "it feels OK to me" is all the testing they need.

      And of course there are matters of clearly defined objective fact where opinions are worthless. 2 + 2 does not equal 5 however much we might like to make it happen - outside of Enron-style accounting 2+2=4 whatever our opinions, preferences etc might be that day.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    13. Likes davedajobauk liked this post
    14. #10
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      3,754
      CH Cash
      15,833
      CH Challenge
      215
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      15,726
      Level
      36
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      5.65%
      Rep Power
      411
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      '

      A fundamental discussion ......


      RELATIVISM.


      This came into Christianity with the Enlightenment and has become very, very popular. It is the core value of most "Christian" Internet forums.


      The fundamental affirmation of relativism is that all we have are OPINIONS, human OPINIONS. Nothing more (nothing less). No one knows which (if any) is true. Some hold that it doesn't matter which is true in some objective sense, only what is true to YOU (felt by you at this moment) and what works for YOU (relativism and pragmatism often joined these days), but relativism in its most extreme form claims that there is no such thing as true (and thus false) in some universal, objective sense.

      Those with the core value of relativism seek OPINIONS. Individual, personal OPINIONS. All protected from those who think one opinion is any better or has any more worth than any other. Someone has the opinion that President Trump has a low IQ just holds that view (it absolutely doesn't matter if Trump does or not) One holds that the Earth is flat and square and small, that's his OPINION. We're all free to have our OWN opinions. And all of them are equally valid. And you can accept that President Trump has an IQ of 75 if that's what you want to do, or not if that's what you want, it doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't, opinions matter.

      Phil Donohue makes some statement (entirely irrelevant whether there's a bit of truth in it cuz there is no truth) then runs up to one person in the audience who says whatever their opinion is (doesn't matter) and Phil goes, "WOW! Mind blowing!" Then runs up to someone else with another opinion (doesn't matter what) and Phil goes, "WOW! Amazing!" And on and on and on it goes. All protected. Relativism.


      Is this Christian? When God gave the Ten Commandments, was He just sharing his personal opinion at the moment, nothing based in truthfulness? Could Phil run up to one Hebrew at Mount Sinai and say, "What do you think of that?" And the person could say ANYTHING that pops into his brain at that moment and Phil would say, "WOW! Brilliant!" Relativism - just unaccountable opinions.



      Are we to just swallow the opinions of others?

      Are all opinions equal?

      Does truth actually exist?

      Does it matter?

      To God?

      Should it to us?



      Should the zillions of various and often conflicting OPINIONS that may suddenly spring from the mouths of the 7.5 billion people on the planet (or 2.2 billion Christians on the planet) just all be embraced cuz they are OPINIONS?

      Is it possible to be wrong?

      Is falsehood just swell if it's an opinion of some guy at this moment?

      Is it more loving and more Christian to empower false, harmful teachings or to correct them?

      What did the Prophets in OT think about that?

      What did Jesus think about that?



      Were the early Christians wrong to reject Gnosticism (and thus keep the church from GREATLY growing in numbers with their welcome; the church could have doubled over night)?

      Were the early Christians wrong to reject Arianism (and thus cause many to leave the church and the church shrunk mightily as a result?

      Was Luther wrong to post the 95 Thesis? He should have equally welcomed ALL opinions just the same cuz truth doesn't exist or matter if it does?



      Let's say Our Savior Catholic Church in San Francisco FEELS it has a problem, because it is not growing FAST ENOUGH and a few think the problem is that some of the positions of the Catholic Church are difficult to the community around them. Would it be good policy for Our Savior Catholic Church to declare that the RCC has the "right to their opinion" but it doesn't matter, and those in the community have a right to THEIR personal opinion - and whatever is your opinion is your opinion and all that matters, golly geeze. So, it eliminates all statements about sin and wrong and adultery and same-gender marriage because those are OPINIONS and no one has any "right" to insist theirs is more right than any other. Maybe Our Saviors will grow.... maybe not..... but do you think possible growth "justifies" it's dumping of truth for relativism?



      Does truth matter?

      Is there a LOVING and CHRISTIAN basis to accountabillity and correction? Or should Christians just welcome anything - as long as it's an opinion - because truth doesn't matter, even if it exists, just opinions? Or is it more loving, more Christian to welcome falsehood, even heresy? Was Jesus wrong to reject the opinion of the Pharisees? Was Isaiah wrong to reject the opinion of the rulers?



      Is it loving and Christian to shut up or speak up?




      What does Scripture say
      for those who think God's opinion matters more than any other:



      Where there is wrong behavior
      :

      Matthew 18:15, ff

      Galatians 6:1-2

      1 Timothy 5:20

      James 5:20

      Luke 17:3-4



      Importance of sound doctrine and repudiation of relativism:

      Titus 1:9

      Jude 3

      Philippians 1:27

      1 Corinthians 15:3-4

      Ephesians 4:15


      Need to correct false teaching/teachers:

      Titus 1:13

      Titus 3:10

      Jude 4

      2 Timothy 4:9-10

      2 Timothy 1:15

      1 Timothy 1:18-20

      Ephesians 5:11-14


      Need to avoid false teachers
      :

      2 John 9-11

      Romans 16:17-18


      Speaking the truth, in love:

      Ephesians 4:15

      1 Corinthians 4:1






      What is your core value, Relativism or Truth?




      - Josiah




      .
      Far too many questions in one post to try address. What I observe from your comments is that you are specifically addressing post-modernism, which is within relativism.
      The very conclusion of post-modern relativism is the very same conclusion of the preacher in Ecclesiastes when he ponders life outside of God. That conclusion is..."meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless."

    Tags for this Thread

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •