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    Christian Theology - Thread: When is our name written in the book of life?

    1. #11
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      The contradiction is in saying "we are chosen", yet turning around and saying we are the ones who chose. Which is it?

      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      I don't see a contradiction. If you do please explain to me.

      From the Scriptures

      But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
      John 1:12-13
      Takes free will to receive Him
      The last part of your verse tells us that those who believe did so not by their will, but by God's will. It actually argues against free-will.
      If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord .”
      Joshua 24:15-16
      I share the next part of Joshua 24, which reveals the false belief of Israel that they could somehow obey God’s command so well that God would be pleased. Joshua warns them that their thinking they could please God by their works will end up badly.
      Do you recall the history of Israel and how they never gave up their idols?
      Joshua 24 is a warning to us that we can never please God with our choices.

      Joshua 24:16,19-21
      [16]The people replied, “We would never abandon the lord and serve other gods.
      [19]Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the lord, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
      [20]If you abandon the lord and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you.”
      [21]But the people answered Joshua, “No, we will serve the lord!”
      I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
      Deuteronomy 30:19 -
      This verse has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but it has to do with blessing in the land while the people were alive.
      Choice is an act of the will. We use free choice every day. Scripture says we "choose" life or death
      You have developed a philosophy of free-will by looking for a few verses, without context, to serve as a prooftext for your philosophy. This is always the case when a person claims there is free-will in regard to their salvation.
      Now, we do make decisions as to daily life here on earth. Each decision is by God's ordained will, meaning God gives a "yes" to our decisions...even the evil ones. This is because God is great in mercy and patience.
      We have no say, however, in our being adopted by God. We have no say in being made alive in Christ. Dead men can't choose.
      I point out that from Genesis to Revelation we see God choosing to extend grace and give the gift of faith. God chose to call out Adam and Eve while they ran to hide. God chose Abraham from all others. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose the judges. God chose David (notice that the people's choice, Saul, was a failure). God chose the prophets. God chose John the Baptist. Read John's Gospel and notice how God chooses who will be His sheep. Read Paul's letters and Peter's letters and look for the words chosen and predestined. Just read and let God's word speak. If you put aside your presupposition and philosophy and just let the Bible speak for itself, you will find your free-will argument withered to nothing. That's what happened with me. I grew up as a Mennonite. It's hard to be more free-will than Mennonites. But, I started reading my Bible and I just let it say what it says. I came to see that it is all God and nothing from me when it comes to me being adopted by God. God, for some unknown reason (to me) chose to adopt a person who was born in rebellion and was living in rebellion. There was no reason to choose me. But, God decided to be gracious and merciful and cleanse me by the atoning work of Jesus.
      When I let go of the philosophy of free-will, I was set free from my burdens that I had built for myself. Joy in Christ is so easy. Gratitude flows because of God's amazing grace.

    2. #12
      RichWh1's Avatar
      RichWh1 is offline Apprentice Member
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      The last part of your verse tells us that those who believe did so not by their will, but by God's will. It actually argues against free-will.
      Saying that we have no will to choose is determinism, which is not found in the Scriptures. The ability to choose is found there and is a part of man's ability to either accept or reject the gift of God, salvation.

      I share the next part of Joshua 24, which reveals the false belief of Israel that they could somehow obey God’s command so well that God would be pleased. Joshua warns them that their thinking they could please God by their works will end up badly.
      How do you explain the use of the word choose? Choose 'this day' whom you will serve. This doesn't eliminate other gods or the fact that the Israelites did worship idols in the wilderness. If we have no choice, then everything is predetermined, meaning we cannot be held responsible for something God did or did not do. That would make God unjust.

      This verse has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but it has to do with blessing in the land while the people were alive.
      That verse (Deut. 30:19) is dealing with free will and choice, not salvation eternal or otherwise. It was quoted to show choice that individuals have in either accepting or rejecting the gift of God.

      You have developed a philosophy of free-will by looking for a few verses, without context, to serve as a prooftext for your philosophy
      It is called exegesis not philosophy. It seems you are the one who had developed the philosophy. That of determinism.

      I point out that from Genesis to Revelation we see God choosing to extend grace and give the gift of faith. God chose to call out Adam and Eve while they ran to hide. God chose Abraham from all others. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose the judges. God chose David (notice that the people's choice, Saul, was a failure). God chose the prophets. God chose John the Baptist.
      Being chosen by God is a unique privilege, however it does not negate our freedom to choose. Have atheists chosen to not believe? Yes they have. God hardened Pharaoh's heart only after Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

      1 Tim.2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

      Do all come to a knowledge of the truth? If not, why not?

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    4. #13
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      Saying that we have no will to choose is determinism, which is not found in the Scriptures. The ability to choose is found there and is a part of man's ability to either accept or reject the gift of God, salvation.
      Ephesians 2:1 tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Verses 4-5 tell us that God made us alive in Christ. Ephesians 1 tells us that those whom God chose from before the world began were predestined to receive the adoption. God does determine whom he will graciously adopt into his kingdom. Go to Romans 3 and read that "no one seeks God, not even one." Read in Romans 8 about God's choice of us. Read in Romans 9 that God chose Jacob and rejected Esau...before the two were born. Salvation is God's choice and his alone to give. The Bible is clear.

      How do you explain the use of the word choose? Choose 'this day' whom you will serve. This doesn't eliminate other gods or the fact that the Israelites did worship idols in the wilderness. If we have no choice, then everything is predetermined, meaning we cannot be held responsible for something God did or did not do. That would make God unjust.
      Read Romans 9. Paul addresses your complaint directly. He speaks exactly to your concern.

      That verse (Deut. 30:19) is dealing with free will and choice, not salvation eternal or otherwise. It was quoted to show choice that individuals have in either accepting or rejecting the gift of God.
      I said that we make choices in this world. All our actions are allowed by God's ordained will. We cannot do something that God does not give a "yes". Read the dialogue between Satan and God in the book of Job. Satan had to get permission.
      God is Sovereign over all things. This means you cannot have free will. If your will was free, you could override God's ordained will. By saying you have free-will, you are saying your will is greater and has has more authority than God. I doubt you believe you have that kind of power.

      It is called exegesis not philosophy. It seems you are the one who had developed the philosophy. That of determinism.
      It's not exegesis. Exegesis is the act of digging into a passage and understanding what that passage/word means. I went through your verses and explained their meaning and context. That is exegesis.
      Free-will is a man-made philosophy where men are viewed as equal to or greater than God in making choices. The Bible rejects that philosophy.

      Being chosen by God is a unique privilege, however it does not negate our freedom to choose.
      Not just chosen. Predestined. Look at Romans 8 and Ephesians 1.
      Again, you are imagining that your daily choices are outside of God's ordained will.
      Have atheists chosen to not believe? Yes they have. God hardened Pharaoh's heart only after Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
      First, all humans are born in rebellion to God. Belief in a deity or unbelief meets the same fate as both are corrupted by sin. Humans have no choice in this. The sin of Adam corrupted all of Adams offspring.
      Second, Romans 3 tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Thus, humans cannot will themselves to not believe. They do not believe from conception onward...unless God graciously chooses to redeem them by intervening on their behalf.
      Pharoah could only do what God ordained.
      1 Tim.2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

      Do all come to a knowledge of the truth? If not, why not?
      If the "all" is mankind...universal...then God fails in his own desires. Is God weaker than man? God does, however, assure us that all whom he has chosen will not be lost. He will save each and every one. How are they saved? By the one mediator...Jesus.

      Sidenote: It took me years of struggle on this issue as I wrestled with God for my right to choose. I understand the paradigm shift that our old nature fights so hard against. I can only state that reading the scriptures by tossing away my preconceptions and childhood teaching and letting scripture speak was the process God used to walk me out of my free-will philosophy. I understand how hard our natural being fights against God's absolute and total sovereignty.

    5. #14
      TangledWeb is offline Rookie Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      What scripture passage are you thinking of?
      Did your question refer to the blotting out or the free will because I thought the blotting out was in Revelation but I think it has more to do with Psalm 69:28 even though it does not state that God will blot out it is a wish by the psalmist.

    6. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by TangledWeb View Post
      Did your question refer to the blotting out or the free will because I thought the blotting out was in Revelation but I think it has more to do with Psalm 69:28 even though it does not state that God will blot out it is a wish by the psalmist.
      Blotting out.

      I'm not sure one can say that God blots out people's names from this passage. Certainly it was the prayer of the Psalmist toward those who mistreated him.

      Psalms 69:17-30
      [17]Don’t hide from your servant; answer me quickly, for I am in deep trouble!
      [18]Come and redeem me; free me from my enemies.
      [19]You know of my shame, scorn, and disgrace. You see all that my enemies are doing.
      [20]Their insults have broken my heart, and I am in despair. If only one person would show some pity; if only one would turn and comfort me.
      [21]But instead, they give me poison for food; they offer me sour wine for my thirst.
      [22]Let the bountiful table set before them become a snare and their prosperity become a trap.
      [23]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, and make their bodies shake continually.
      [24]Pour out your fury on them; consume them with your burning anger.
      [25]Let their homes become desolate and their tents be deserted.
      [26]To the one you have punished, they add insult to injury; they add to the pain of those you have hurt.
      [27]Pile their sins up high, and don’t let them go free.
      [28]Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous.
      [29]I am suffering and in pain. Rescue me, O God, by your saving power.
      [30]Then I will praise God’s name with singing, and I will honor him with thanksgiving.
      Last edited by MennoSota; 06-01-2018 at 08:50 PM.

    7. #16
      RichWh1's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by TangledWeb View Post
      Did your question refer to the blotting out or the free will because I thought the blotting out was in Revelation but I think it has more to do with Psalm 69:28 even though it does not state that God will blot out it is a wish by the psalmist.
      The blotting out is a wish for the enemies of the psalmist. In previous words he asks God to deliver him and protect him, not have his name blotted out, rather to have those of his enemies blotted out.

      As to one who trusts in God that person is secure in the shadow of His wing.
      The believers are secure in Christ and what He did for us.




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      "Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

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    9. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The contradiction is in saying "we are chosen", yet turning around and saying we are the ones who chose. Which is it?


      The last part of your verse tells us that those who believe did so not by their will, but by God's will. It actually argues against free-will.

      I share the next part of Joshua 24, which reveals the false belief of Israel that they could somehow obey God’s command so well that God would be pleased. Joshua warns them that their thinking they could please God by their works will end up badly.
      Do you recall the history of Israel and how they never gave up their idols?
      Joshua 24 is a warning to us that we can never please God with our choices.

      Joshua 24:16,19-21
      [16]The people replied, “We would never abandon the lord and serve other gods.
      [19]Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the lord, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
      [20]If you abandon the lord and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you.”
      [21]But the people answered Joshua, “No, we will serve the lord!”

      This verse has nothing to do with eternal salvation, but it has to do with blessing in the land while the people were alive.

      You have developed a philosophy of free-will by looking for a few verses, without context, to serve as a prooftext for your philosophy. This is always the case when a person claims there is free-will in regard to their salvation.
      Now, we do make decisions as to daily life here on earth. Each decision is by God's ordained will, meaning God gives a "yes" to our decisions...even the evil ones. This is because God is great in mercy and patience.
      We have no say, however, in our being adopted by God. We have no say in being made alive in Christ. Dead men can't choose.
      I point out that from Genesis to Revelation we see God choosing to extend grace and give the gift of faith. God chose to call out Adam and Eve while they ran to hide. God chose Abraham from all others. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose the judges. God chose David (notice that the people's choice, Saul, was a failure). God chose the prophets. God chose John the Baptist. Read John's Gospel and notice how God chooses who will be His sheep. Read Paul's letters and Peter's letters and look for the words chosen and predestined. Just read and let God's word speak. If you put aside your presupposition and philosophy and just let the Bible speak for itself, you will find your free-will argument withered to nothing. That's what happened with me. I grew up as a Mennonite. It's hard to be more free-will than Mennonites. But, I started reading my Bible and I just let it say what it says. I came to see that it is all God and nothing from me when it comes to me being adopted by God. God, for some unknown reason (to me) chose to adopt a person who was born in rebellion and was living in rebellion. There was no reason to choose me. But, God decided to be gracious and merciful and cleanse me by the atoning work of Jesus.
      When I let go of the philosophy of free-will, I was set free from my burdens that I had built for myself. Joy in Christ is so easy. Gratitude flows because of God's amazing grace.
      The Lord reigns; let the peoples tremble!
      He sits enthroned upon the cherubim; let the earth quake!
      2 The Lord is great in Zion;
      he is exalted over all the peoples.
      3 Let them praise your great and awesome name!
      Holy is he!
      4 The King in his might loves justice.[a]
      You have established equity;
      you have executed justice
      and righteousness in Jacob.
      5 Exalt the Lord our God;
      worship at his footstool!
      Holy is he!
      6 Moses and Aaron were among his priests,
      Samuel also was among those who called upon his name.
      They called to the Lord, and he answered them.
      7 In the pillar of the cloud he spoke to them;
      they kept his testimonies
      and the statute that he gave them.
      8 O Lord our God, you answered them;
      you were a forgiving God to them,
      but an avenger of their wrongdoings.
      9 Exalt the Lord our God,
      and worship at his holy mountain;
      for the Lord our God is holy!


      Personally I disagree vehemently with the statement below.


      "Now, we do make decisions as to daily life here on earth. Each decision is by God's ordained will, meaning God gives a "yes" to our decisions...even the evil ones."

      Yeshayahu (isaiah 55
      "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
      Last edited by pinacled; 06-03-2018 at 09:37 PM.

    10. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      The blotting out is a wish for the enemies of the psalmist. In previous words he asks God to deliver him and protect him, not have his name blotted out, rather to have those of his enemies blotted out.

      As to one who trusts in God that person is secure in the shadow of His wing.
      The believers are secure in Christ and what He did for us.




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Amen

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    12. #19
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by pinacled View Post
      Personally I disagree vehemently with the statement below.

      "Now, we do make decisions as to daily life here on earth. Each decision is by God's ordained will, meaning God gives a "yes" to our decisions...even the evil ones."
      Why?
      Can we live or breathe outside of the Creator's ordination? The Bible says we cannot.
      Since we can do nothing except by God's ordination it stands that even the wickedness of man is given the right to exist and act because God, in His own undisclosed plan, says that it can happen. If God willed it, all evil would cease immediately, but God does not yet will it. Therefore, the evil He allows is allowed according to His perfect and good ordination.

    13. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      The blotting out is a wish for the enemies of the psalmist. In previous words he asks God to deliver him and protect him, not have his name blotted out, rather to have those of his enemies blotted out.

      As to one who trusts in God that person is secure in the shadow of His wing.
      The believers are secure in Christ and what He did for us.




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Why?
      Can we live or breathe outside of the Creator's ordination? The Bible says we cannot.
      Since we can do nothing except by God's ordination it stands that even the wickedness of man is given the right to exist and act because God, in His own undisclosed plan, says that it can happen. If God willed it, all evil would cease immediately, but God does not yet will it. Therefore, the evil He allows is allowed according to His perfect and good ordination.
      "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good.

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