• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
    Results 51 to 60 of 60

    Christian Theology - Thread: HELL

    1. #51
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      16,089
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      200,414
      CH Challenge
      83
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (163,528 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      193,584
      Level
      92
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      5.91%
      Rep Power
      828
      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
      Revelation 21:8
      As a believer you have the Holy Spirit living in you. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit would have to suffer do you? Didn't Jesus suffer for your sins already? You're covered by Christ's righteousness.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    2. Likes DHoffmann liked this post
    3. #52
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
      34
      Mood:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      2,095
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      10,528
      CH Challenge
      159
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,779
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      78.47%
      Rep Power
      327
      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      As a believer you have the Holy Spirit living in you. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit would have to suffer do you? Didn't Jesus suffer for your sins already? You're covered by Christ's righteousness.
      Truth indeed.
      The verse I refer to is dealing with the unrepented sinner and unbelievers having their part in the fire, when putting on the new man we bury the old man so to speak, and all men are to die once and then the judgment... To die twice is to take part in the second death, lake of fire.

    4. #53
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      4,025
      CH Cash
      16,952
      CH Challenge
      232
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      16,477
      Level
      36
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      75.63%
      Rep Power
      424


    5. #54
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
      34
      Mood:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      2,095
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      10,528
      CH Challenge
      159
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,779
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      78.47%
      Rep Power
      327
      Hahahaha!
      This thread is now about the Simpsons
      -OP coordinator

    6. #55
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      Hedrick in Post #44 explained for us:
      The idea of the age of accountability comes from the understanding that due to original sin, everyone deserves hell. Only by a positive action can we be saved from this. Since infants can’t do this, they get a special exemption. So the question is at what age the exemption stops...
      The explanation is a worthy summary of the “problem” of original sin, and the commonly taught solution for its perceived effect on infants. However, I would once again suggest that that set of ideas is based on human wisdom – it is of human derivation. It overrides the clear, simple revelation that God graciously provided for us. That set of ideas is totally at odds with “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3)

      ================================================== ============================================

      For instance, the concept of an age of accountability (the time of transition from the state of infant protection, to that of adult responsibility) is not taught in the Bible. It is a totally foreign concept with respect to the Original Apostolic Gospel. (Alien, actually. Flying saucer stuff.)

      Yet that concept is central to the doctrine sets of most churches. (Whether or not they admit it. Whether or not they deny it.)

      The important question is: How could the apostles have got it so wrong? How could they have missed something so “fundamental”, something so “obviously necessary”?

      ================================================== ============================================

      But what if the apostles didn’t get it wrong? What if that teaching, well summarised for us above, is not fundamental, but seriously flawed?

      To find out, we simply need to ask: Just what was (and still is) the clear Apostolic Teaching, committed to writing as it was (and still is), about the fate of all infants who (so tragically) die, whether or not they are baptised?

      Anyone?


      (My request in Post #42 for references (any reference) unequivocally referring to an age of accountability, bore no fruit.)


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    7. Likes DHoffmann liked this post
    8. #56
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #46:
      Nobody is putting words in Jesus mouth:

      [Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal[G166] fire.
      [Mat 25:41, 46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal[G166] fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal[G166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal[G166] life."

      No talk of “destruction” from the lips of Jesus in these verses, just ETERNAL fire and ETERNAL punishment.
      Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)
      It is true that we are told that the Greek word “aionios” (Strong’s G166), the word used to translate what Jesus originally said, means only: “perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)” (Strong’s); or “1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2. without beginning; 3. without end, never to cease, everlasting” (Thayer).

      But is that indeed so?

      ================================================== ============================================

      Next time, we’ll look into the fact that Jesus’ original words weren’t spoken in Greek, and see where that leads.

      For now though, it is sufficient to note that the range of meanings given in the lexicons (Strong’s and Thayer) for “aionios” is deficient. Not all the meanings as seen in the New Testament have been presented. Consider Paul’s words to Philemon regarding his runaway slave Onesimus:

      Philemon 1:15: For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever (G166 - “for good” in the NIV). The rest of the letter (epistle) shows that Paul was asking Philemon to welcome Onesimus back without reserve and permanently. Until death did them part. Besides, that is the only perspective that makes sense.

      We see that even when directly written in Greek (as opposed to being used to translate a word from a different language), “aionios” shows itself to not always mean “forever” or “eternal”. It can denote permanence up to a definite (even predefined) end in time.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    9. #57
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      913
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,767
      CH Challenge
      42
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,758
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      22.99%
      Rep Power
      209
      How long will Philemon and Onesimus be Christian brothers?
      Til death or forever?

    10. #58
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
      56
      Married
      Mood:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Posts
      913
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      3,767
      CH Challenge
      42
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (10,500 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,758
      Level
      25
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      22.99%
      Rep Power
      209
      How sneaky of the Bible to say “eternal” when it really means “for a long while”.
      Does that apply to “eternal life” as well?

    11. #59
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      This is the continuation from Post #56.

      We’ll address the shallow (necessarily shallow) comments in Posts #57 and #58 more closely in a later Post. Suffice it now to point out that the “receive him for ever” in Philemon 1:15 is speaking of a potential, irreversible, reconciling relationship between a forgiven malefactor slave and the forgiving aggrieved slave owner. That potential relationship pertains to their earthly lifespan only. There would be no subsequent hint of that “receiving” (reconciling relationship) in Heaven. In Heaven they would be independent co-equals – they would be independent co-equals, whether or not Onesimus returned to Philemon, and whether or not Philemon forgave Onesimus as requested. That is patently obvious, but conveniently overlooked. (Ephesians 6:5-6; Colossians 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:1-2; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18)

      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #46 the Author presented Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41, and pointed out the use of “eternal” (“aionios” – Strong’s G166) in the phrases “eternal fire”, “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”. He then asked: “Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)”

      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #56 we saw that the Greek word “aionios” (Strong’s G166) did not simply mean “forever”, “eternal”, etc. as the lexicons (translation dictionaries) that were referenced, suggested. Philemon 1:15 reveals a broader scope of meaning – “a time period that will have an end” – a broader scope than reported. (The Hebrew word from which it was translated has that broader scope also, as we’ll see.)

      So even when translated into Greek, Jesus’ words were compatible with His word picture elsewhere of the Valley of Hinnom garbage dump (“gay hinnom” in Hebrew, “Gehenna” in Greek), that Jesus’ hearers knew annihilated everything that was thrown into it. The word picture is of an annihilation of the wicked from which there is no escape (eternal effectiveness), via a mechanism that would not always be required (will there ever be an end to wickedness in the future?).

      ================================================== ============================================

      But Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek. He was speaking either Hebrew or the closely related language Aramaic. The thought patterns in closely related languages are normally similar. Those in dissimilar languages are often very different. As are the way thoughts are expressed. (Think of the word “run” in English. How many different meanings does it have? Heaps. Most languages would have to use a number of different words to translate our word “run”.) Scholars tell us that the structure of the Hebrew language lends itself readily to plays on words. English does too, to some degree. (He ran for the position of CEO, and while he ran the company, he ran it into the ground.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Coming up: we’ll have a look at the Hebrew word “olam” (Strong’s H5769) – we’ll look at the meanings given in the lexicons (translation dictionaries), and the meaning revealed by its actual use in the Holy Scriptures.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    12. Likes DHoffmann liked this post
    13. #60
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      768
      Country
      Australia
      CH Cash
      4,643
      CH Challenge
      54
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,026
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      16.77%
      Rep Power
      110
      ================================================== ============================================

      This is the continuation from Post #59.

      In Post #46 the Author presented Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41, and pointed out that the use of “eternal” (“aionios” – Strong’s G166) in the phrases “eternal fire”, “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”. He then asked: “Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)”

      ================================================== ============================================

      In a former Post we saw that corresponding words in languages that are not closely related, can have different ranges of meaning, and vice versa. Here we will concentrate on the meanings of the Hebrew word “olam”.

      (For possible future reference later, scholars tell us that the structure of the Hebrew language (as God structured it, we must acknowledge) lends itself to plays on words. The plays on words that occur in Scripture can be highly significant. Lest there be any doubt about that, I ask: Where in the Holy Inspired Hebrew Scriptures is the following prophecy found: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew 2:23)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Hebrew word “olam” is said to mean (Strong’s): 1. (properly) concealed, i.e. the vanishing point 2. (generally) time out of mind (past or future) 3. (practically) eternity 4. (frequentatively, adverbially, especially with prepositional prefix) always; and (Brown-Driver-Briggs) 1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world a. ancient time, long time (of past) b. (of future) i. for ever, always ii. continuous existence, perpetual iii. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.

      In any of the following verses, can we detect the meaning of “long duration” (as reported by Brown-Driver-Briggs, but omitted by Strong’s)?:

      Exodus 12:14, Exodus 12:17, Exodus 12:24, Exodus 19:9, Exodus 21:6, Exodus 27:21, Exodus 29:28, Exodus 31:16, Exodus 40:15, Leviticus 16:29, Leviticus 16:34, Leviticus 24:3, Levitucus 25:34, Numbers 25:13, Deuteronomy 15:17, Joshua 4:7, Judges 2:1, 1 Samuel 1:22, 1 Samuel 20:23, 1 Samuel 20:42, 2 Samuel 7:24, 1 Kings 1:31, 2 Kings 5:27, 1 Chronicles 15:2, 1 Chronicles 23:13, Job 41:4, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:44, Psalm2 119:93, Psalms 119:111, Psalms 119:112, Proverbs 10:30, Isaiah 34:10, Isaiah 42:14, Jeremiah 7:7, Jeremiah 35:6, Joel 2:26, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:20, Jonah 2:6.

      We thus see that Jesus’ words as originally spoken, are consistent with respect to His use of the well-known annihilating rubbish dump as a picture of the fate of the wicked.

      That rubbish dump on one side of Jerusalem that annihilated everything that was thrown into it, was known as “The Valley of Hinnom” – “gay hinnom” – poorly transliterated into “Gehenna” in Greek. Jesus spoke of its fire as having permanence for the foreseeable future, and therefore from it and from its effect, there could be no escape.

      The punishment, because once it is inflicted there is no hope of reversal, is indeed everlasting (eternal).


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •