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    Results 21 to 30 of 60

    Christian Theology - Thread: HELL

    1. #21
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      The Catholic creed declares that those outside of the Catholic faith are destined to eternal hell fire so what does they say for Protestantism? Many Protestants say that the Pope is the false prophet or the anti-Christ so what does that say for Catholicism? What does it say for non baptised babies? I thought the promise was for the generations of the baptised, yet whether a church says it or not they imply because they believe that water baptism is a must in their church by God.
      Sorry, but Catholics don't say that. Indeed recent popes have suggested that even atheists can be saved.

      The anti-Christ business is pretty unusual these days.

      The current Catholic position on baptism not so clear. E.g. there is "baptism of desire," which includes anyone who would have been baptized had they known it was a requirement.

    2. #22
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      .

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      Again, Zoroastrianism has been essentially dead for milleniums and it was not a great influence on Western culture. It had its niche in Persia.

    3. #23
      Albion's Avatar
      Albion is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Do you believe that non baptised infants go to hell?
      No. And the view of most of Christianity is that they do not, which is why I asked why you would call it the "orthodox" belief.

      By now, I know that I am unlikely to get an answer to that question.

    4. #24
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      No. And the view of most of Christianity is that they do not, which is why I asked why you would call it the "orthodox" belief.

      By now, I know that I am unlikely to get an answer to that question.
      Catholicism believes that all non baptised peoples go to hell. My dad believes this because that's what he has been taught growing up, he is in fear for my niece who is 5 years old and hasn't been baptised because her father a JW and atheist (go figure) will not allow it.
      Maybe everything is just backwards where I live and you all think I am just making all of this up lol but I am not and it's a miniature epidemic here, please be patient

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    5. #25
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Catholicism believes that all non baptised peoples go to hell. My dad believes this because that's what he has been taught growing up, he is in fear for my niece who is 5 years old and hasn't been baptised because her father a JW and atheist (go figure) will not allow it.
      Maybe everything is just backwards where I live and you all think I am just making all of this up lol but I am not and it's a miniature epidemic here, please be patient

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      No, it does not. Here's the section from the Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM. Note the various qualfications there. To be really a problem a person would need to know that it's necessary and then refuse it. This would not be the case of your niece.

      It's easy for someone to be mistaken about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or any church. I'd hate to think what my Sunday School kids would say if given a quiz on what we taught. Sometimes teachers don't give all the complexities. E.g. they may say "baptism is necessary for salvation," which is in fact the official Catholic position, but not give the qualifications that you'll see in the section of the Catechism I've cited. Or maybe the teacher did but the person didn't quite understand.

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    7. #26
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      No, it does not. Here's the section from the Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM. Note the various qualfications there. To be really a problem a person would need to know that it's necessary and then refuse it. This would not be the case of your niece.

      It's easy for someone to be mistaken about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or any church. I'd hate to think what my Sunday School kids would say if given a quiz on what we taught. Sometimes teachers don't give all the complexities. E.g. they may say "baptism is necessary for salvation," which is in fact the official Catholic position, but not give the qualifications that you'll see in the section of the Catechism I've cited. Or maybe the teacher did but the person didn't quite understand.
      Thanks for the info, I would like to show this to my father in hopes that it gives him peace

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    8. #27
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      In Hoffmann's defense, you'll likely find each parish priest is confused as to what the RC officially teaches. The RC catechism is purposefully obtuse so that nothing is straightforward. In this way the parishioners are left in reliance upon the church to give clarification. It's quite a scam if you ask me.
      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      No, it does not. Here's the section from the Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM. Note the various qualfications there. To be really a problem a person would need to know that it's necessary and then refuse it. This would not be the case of your niece.

      It's easy for someone to be mistaken about the teachings of the Catholic Church, or any church. I'd hate to think what my Sunday School kids would say if given a quiz on what we taught. Sometimes teachers don't give all the complexities. E.g. they may say "baptism is necessary for salvation," which is in fact the official Catholic position, but not give the qualifications that you'll see in the section of the Catechism I've cited. Or maybe the teacher did but the person didn't quite understand.

    9. #28
      DHoffmann's Avatar
      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      In Hoffmann's defense, you'll likely find each parish priest is confused as to what the RC officially teaches. The RC catechism is purposefully obtuse so that nothing is straightforward. In this way the parishioners are left in reliance upon the church to give clarification. It's quite a scam if you ask me.
      I suppose that if Catholicism is at windows 10 my dad is still at windows 95... they really should make regular mentions as to where the Catechism stands when it comes to things like baptism. There is no reason why my dad should assume the outdated position of baptism seeing that according to the vatican website "God has mercy on the dead" regardless of baptism or non baptism -both being 'just' in Catholic funeral rites. Thankfully we haven't been to an infant funeral nor a non baptised funeral to learn this. Again I thank hedrick for the info
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 05-27-2018 at 10:09 PM.

    10. #29
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is offline Clarifier
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      DHoffman, Post #1:
      A church that believes that a baby who was unwanted and disposed of and died the day it was born goes straight to "hell" is no friend of mine.
      Albion, Post #2:
      What church is ruled out then?
      Maybe that’s the whole point.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I have been suggesting for some time that the original Apostolic Gospel be given prominence by determining what the Holy Bible natively says (instead of it being twisted by conflicting church doctrines being retrofitted into it).

      Once that is done, each post-Apostolic doctrine can then be examined for acceptability (proven inspiration from God), and either accepted with confidence or soundly rejected.

      But that approach has not proven acceptable, for a possible variety of reasons.

      ================================================== ============================================

      But DHoffman and Albion in combination, have presented us with a new approach.

      1. Make a list of every church (denomination, sub-denomination, “independent” church, and even “cult”,) that you can think of. Keep the list flexible. Add others as they come to mind.

      2. Identify each “church doctrine” that was defined (made orthodox) after the “Nicene Creed” of 381AD.

      3. For each of those doctrines, draw a strike-out line through every church or group on the list that teaches that doctrine. (Unless already crossed out.)

      4. See which churches or groups (if any) are left, once that is done. (Add to the list if necessary.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The survivors can then be investigated in more depth to determine which most closely represents native Biblical teaching – God’s true revelation.

      Wouldn’t that give us a clearly definitive result?


      Who would be willing (brave enough) to take that on, and let us know what they find?


      ================================================== ============================================


      (That willing person should also be on the lookout for the deliberate use of artificial wording to translate Greek and Hebrew words (especially what Jesus was saying to His countrymen Jews). E,g. The use of the artificial word “hell” to translate “the Valley of Hinnom” (“gay hinnom”). “The Valley of Hinnom” was the large rubbish dump that served the entire city of Jerusalem. (“Gehenna” is simply a distorted Greek transliteration of the Hebrew “gay hinnom”. And Jesus wasn't talking in Greek, anyway.) Jesus’ hearers knew “the Valley of Hinnom” meant “the rubbish dump that annihilates everything which is thrown into it”. The original transliteration into Greek did not change that meaning. There was not even a hint of torture, or of continuation of existence.)
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    12. #30
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      DHoffman, Post #1:


      Albion, Post #2:


      Maybe that’s the whole point.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I have been suggesting for some time that the original Apostolic Gospel be given prominence by determining what the Holy Bible natively says (instead of it being twisted by conflicting church doctrines being retrofitted into it).

      Once that is done, each post-Apostolic doctrine can then be examined for acceptability (proven inspiration from God), and either accepted with confidence or soundly rejected.

      But that approach has not proven acceptable, for a possible variety of reasons.

      ================================================== ============================================

      But DHoffman and Albion in combination, have presented us with a new approach.

      1. Make a list of every church (denomination, sub-denomination, “independent” church, and even “cult”,) that you can think of. Keep the list flexible. Add others as they come to mind.

      2. Identify each “church doctrine” that was defined (made orthodox) after the “Nicene Creed” of 381AD.

      3. For each of those doctrines, draw a strike-out line through every church or group on the list that teaches that doctrine. (Unless already crossed out.)

      4. See which churches or groups (if any) are left, once that is done. (Add to the list if necessary.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The survivors can then be investigated in more depth to determine which most closely represents native Biblical teaching – God’s true revelation.

      Wouldn’t that give us a clearly definitive result?


      Who would be willing (brave enough) to take that on, and let us know what they find?


      ================================================== ============================================


      (That willing person should also be on the lookout for the deliberate use of artificial wording to translate Greek and Hebrew words (especially what Jesus was saying to His countrymen Jews). E,g. The use of the artificial word “hell” to translate “the Valley of Hinnom” (“gay hinnom”). “The Valley of Hinnom” was the large rubbish dump that served the entire city of Jerusalem. (“Gehenna” is simply a distorted Greek transliteration of the Hebrew “gay hinnom”. And Jesus wasn't talking in Greek, anyway.) Jesus’ hearers knew “the Valley of Hinnom” meant “the rubbish dump that annihilates everything which is thrown into it”. The original transliteration into Greek did not change that meaning. There was not even a hint of torture, or of continuation of existence.)
      The Gospel is the Gospel as God shared in the Bible. There is no other gospel.

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