The Colossian Problem

Arsenios said:

Indeed he did, and you and I are called of Him to FOLLOW HIM...

To deny your SELF...

To TAKE UP YOUR CROSS...

And to FOLLOW CHRIST...

Christ has done HIS part already...

Now it is YOUR job to follow Him...

And because He did,
and IF you desire,
you in Him will do so...

Or NOT...
IF...
You desire not to do so...

Arsenios

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Did Jesus flagellate himself on the path to Golgotha or was that ordained by God and executed by rebellious sinners?
Indeed, we follow the Master to the cross. If God ordains that rebels abuse us and castigate us for following our King then we rejoice in the path God ordains. If God chooses another path where rebels do not castigate us, then we rejoice in that ordained path.
We truly deny our own rebellious nature that wants to dictate to God what the path will be. We put to death our will and submit ourselves to God's will.
What we don't do is flagellate our selves or mutilate our bodies in an attempt to please God. We don't imagine that castigating ourselves somehow pleases God. God gave His Son as the propitiation for our sins. That is enough.
The scripture tells me that "nothing can separate me from the love of God." Not even my self.
God is so very good and so very gracious. I am overwhelmed with His kindness and severe mercy toward me. Humbled by His love that is unmerited...undeserved.
I know that God has no desire to see me beat myself up. He sees me in Christ and in Christ I am made 100% righteous because my Savior is 100% righteous.
Why would a I want to go back to my own vomit like dogs do?
Arsenios, throw away your failing attempts to please God by your own merits. God is not impressed with you. Your efforts will always fall short (As do all my efforts). Rest in Christ. Be at peace in Christ. Love life and feed yourself with the goodness and pleasure of Christ and Christ alone. Life is a joy in Christ...even when we are on the path of the cross. My life in Christ is a blast!

jsimms435 said:

I'm not understanding your comment about mutilating the body. His response to you was that we are to take up our cross and follow Jesus. Jesus himself said that.

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Perhaps you miss his insistence on buffeting the body and beating it to emulate Jesus on the cross. I suggest you re-read Arsenios arguments.

jsimms435 said:

I'm not understanding your comment about mutilating the body. His response to you was that we are to take up our cross and follow Jesus. Jesus himself said that.

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Thank-you - I now owe you a Greek Pastry!

Arsenios

MennoSota said:

Perhaps you miss his insistence on buffeting the body and beating it to emulate Jesus on the cross. I suggest you re-read Arsenios arguments.

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I never said that...

But you do have an imaginative approach to what I did say...

Quoting me and commenting might help...

Imaginative remembering...

Not so much...

Arsenios

jsimms435 said:

Yes, unless your pointing to a post outside of this thread, I'm not seeing where he says buffeting the body or beating or mutilating. I am seeing where he talks about self denial which isn't a contradiction to scripture.

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It's a contradiction to scripture when the self-denial is what you hope will grant you the merit to be received into heaven.

MennoSota said:

Did Jesus flagellate himself on the path to Golgotha?
What we don't do is flagellate our selves or mutilate our bodies in an attempt to please God.
I know that God has no desire to see me beat myself up.
Why would a I want to go back to my own vomit like dogs do?

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Some western Christians of a gnostic bent tried self flagellation to punish their flesh which they regarded as evil...
They had lousy results -
That is not how an ascetic life works at all...

The EOC is not into self-flagellation, Menno...
Maybe you got that somewhere else?
Sorry you think so...

Paul did say that he subdued his body - Brought it into subjection to his will that was subjected willingly to Christ... And this involved suffering of some kind, for he wrote that he did so "not as a shadow boxer beating the air..." This means that he took specific measures against whatever thorn in the flesh God gave him so that he would subjugate his body and its fleshly lusts to his mind in Christ... It does not mean that he was walking around flagellating himself...

We fast so that our hunger does not tell us when and how much to eat... Subduing (keeping under) the flesh...
Likewise keeping vigil in prayer through the night... Lest we permit sleep to dictate when we can or do pray...
We keep a discipline of prayer daily, however we may be feeling like praying or not...

You cannot be a disciple of Christ without self-discipline in self denial...

Arsenios

MennoSota said:

It's a contradiction to scripture when the self-denial is what you hope will grant you the merit to be received into heaven.

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Self denial is obedience to the Gospel of Repentance...

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Some western Christians of a gnostic bent tried self flagellation to punish their flesh which they regarded as evil...
They had lousy results -
That is not how an ascetic life works at all...

The EOC is not into self-flagellation, Menno...
Maybe you got that somewhere else?
Sorry you think so...

Paul did say that he subdued his body - Brought it into subjection to his will that was one with Christ... And this involved suffering of some kind, for he wrote that he did so "not as a shadow boxer beating the air..." This means that he took specific measures against whatever thorn in the flesh God gave him so that he would subjugate his body and its fleshly lusts to his mind in Christ... It does not mean that he was walking around flagellating himself...

We fast so that our hunger tells us when and how much to eat... Subduing (keeping under) the flesh...
Likewise keeping vigil in prayer through the night... Lest we permit sleep to dictate when we can pray...
We keep a discipline of prayer daily, however we may be feeling like praying or not...

You cannot be a disciple of Christ without self-discipline in self denial...

Arsenios

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Sure you can be a disciple without self-denial. One does not need to beat one's body into submission to be a disciple. One simply needs to rest in Christ. Rejoice in Christ. Live in Christ.

MennoSota said:

Sure you can be a disciple without self-denial.

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Mat_16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
If any (man) will come after me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow me.

I will step back and let you and Jesus argue against each other unto eternity...

One does not need to beat one's body into submission to be a disciple.

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Only you seem to think one does...

One simply needs to rest in Christ. Rejoice in Christ. Live in Christ.

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Is not easy-believerism a heresy in your faith?

Ever hear of "Persevere to the end that you shall be saved"?

Arsenios

It works this way
Paul has just reminded his readers that baptism is the beginning of a new life. It is not a matter of replacing old commandments with better commandments: the coming of Christ has put an end to all religions with commandments. That will perhaps shock many Christians: should we not obey the commandments of God and of the Church? What will become of us if there are no longer religious duties? Indeed there is no religious group—no Christian community—without rites, habits, commandments: what would become of a community where the members would no longer gather to hear the word of God or celebrate the Eucharist? Paul nevertheless shows it is finished with religions where the most important consideration is to do or not to do, where it is believed that God likes us to rest on such a day, not to eat such and such a food, to dress in a certain way, abstain from this or that. Religions give great importance to these laws for they help the faithful to maintain their cohesion and to retain their own identity. All that deforms the idea we have of God. All that is human regulation, very useful perhaps, old fashioned perhaps, but still always human. Paul says: God does not share our interest in what is transient, in our cooking, feast days and the like; he does not treat us like little children, saying, “Don’t do that!” All that may seem very religious (2:3). Religious prohibitions always impress those who are not free of their fear of God. Instead of freeing us and leading us to child-like trust in God, these restrictions favour a narrow-mindedness, and later violence exerted against those who think differently from us. Do not be mistaken in thinking that contempt for the body is a sign of holiness (v. 23). Fewer kilos do not mean more Spirit! The penances and sacrifices that we impose on ourselves could cause us to feel superior to others. If you belong to a group that has its fasts, would you not like it to be known? Let no one criticize you (v. 16). Who is going to criticize us for celebrating Sunday with the Resurrection of the Lord instead of the Jewish Sabbath?

The critique is not of humble obedience nor of rules about living a godly life what is critiqued is using rules and humility and severe self-denial of bodily things as if those things made bad doctrine good. Take as an example from our times the hard labour and self denying religiosity of Jehovah's witnesses and how they use their door to door work, history of persecution by governments, and reputation as honest good hard working people as 'proofs' that their doctrine must be true. That is where the danger lies and what saint Paul critiques in this passage.

MennoSota said:

Sure you can be a disciple without self-denial.

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May you deny your self, take up your cross, and follow Christ...

One does not need to beat one's body into submission to be a disciple.

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A mighty flame-thrower in a pile of straw...

One simply needs to rest in Christ. Rejoice in Christ. Live in Christ.

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Until you find rest and rejoicing and Life in Christ in afflictions, you cannot know if you even have it...

Embracing the suffering of denial of self with joy is Life in Christ's Death on the Cross...

Arsenios

psalms 91 said:

I think that somewhere in the middle of this is the truth because Jesus wants us to be obedient to what He said and the Father has laid out and what might that nbe? It is taking care of orphans and widows, meeting the need of those whoare poor, spreading the gospel, doing good where we can, healing, casting out demons. How are you doing? I know I fall way short in all this and that is the grace and mercy extended by Jesus sacrifice to make me righteous in Gods sight and nothing of me. So can you see why I say the truth is somewhere in between?

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The truth in between is a lifetime of repentance from self gaining Christ one repenting at a time incrementally, where righteousness is ever-growing as self diminishes and God increases... As one repents overcoming sins of self-assertions in all their forms, God strengthens and prepares one for the next overcoming... Usually unawares to the one struggling against sin... Righteousness is in one sense a lifetime ever-growing acquisition attained through virtue and given by God... And in another sense, it is fully given in Baptism and the Annointing, for weak and small as we are entering Christ as a new-born babe in the Faith, we are IN Christ and now DO have the MEANS of acquiring God's Holy Spirit as we live repentantly and GROW in Christ...

So yes, we ARE Justified in our Baptism INTO Christ
and...
We are becoming Justified through overcoming the world each day and hour...

Because justification means being made right - eg "rectified"...

And those made right are righteous through rectification/justification...

Legalities mean nothing here...

The reality of the human soul is all that is in view...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee said:

The critique is not of humble obedience nor of rules about living a Godly life.
What is critiqued is using rules and humility and severe self-denial of bodily things
as if those things made bad doctrine good.

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Forgive me for paring away the rest of your post, but this nugget is lovely...

Which translation did you use for Col. 2:16?

Arsenios

Arsenios said:

May you deny your self, take up your cross, and follow Christ...



A mighty flame-thrower in a pile of straw...



Until you find rest and rejoicing and Life in Christ in afflictions, you cannot know if you even have it...

Embracing the suffering of denial of self with joy is Life in Christ's Death on the Cross...

Arsenios

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Arsenios, we embrace God's ordained plans, knowing they are good. Whether those plans are for discipline, for the valley or for still waters, they are for God to ordain by His good pleasure. I will not impress God by my own self-righteous efforts of discipline. Thus...we rest in Christ and we rejoice in both plenty and in poverty for we know that God goes before us and nothing that comes against us can stand before our God.
All God, Arsenios, all God.

Arsenios said:

Forgive me for paring away the rest of your post, but this nugget is lovely...

Which translation did you use for Col. 2:16?

Arsenios

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The quote is from the Christian Community Bible, it is a fairly recent translation but it has been superseded by The New Community Bible which is a little more formal. Both are Catholic bibles.

MennoSota said:

I will not impress God by my own self-righteous efforts of discipline.

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Discipling is not to impress God, my brother, but for the healing of your heart that is broken and humbled...

Discipleship is the treasury of the Medicines of Immortality...

The Great Commission was for the Discipling of the Nations...

It was given to the 11...

And to those called to be Apostles...

Not all are called to that Apostolic Calling...

Even though Paul desires that we all should become like him...

Rom 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and make not provision for the flesh,
to fulfil the lusts thereof.

How can you argue that there is discipleship apart from discipline...

How can you follow Christ without co-suffering with Him?

Self-denial is a discipline lovingly embraced...

A discipline of immortality that overcomes the world...

It is the Cost of Discipleship that must be counted...

Lest demonic powers mock us in our failure...

And we be put to shame...

YOU are the KEY to YOUR Salvation...
God wills ALL to be Saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth...
YOU are the only variable here...
God is not in question to Save...
It is YOU who are in question to BE Saved...
YOU are not saved apart from YOU...

Arsenios