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    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ruth View Post
      I think the Pope is 100% right and it is NOT a sin. The old time Bible is wrong. More and more priests and holy people are thinking like the pope. It's time others start looking at this issue more carefully and stop their condemnation of the LGTBQ! This kind of behavior that the gay have has been going on long before the Bible or Church existed and is normal.
      Who gets to decide which parts of God's word we can ignore? At the very least an appeal to Scripture is useful rather than simply saying "ah yes, but things have changed now".

      I must admit I'd really like to see a coherent appeal to Scripture from those who believe homosexual activity should not be regarded as sinful. I'd like to see a reasoned argument that makes the case, such that a mature discussion could be held. But so far the best I've seen amounts to little more than hand-wringing and an insistance that everything is just fine.

      If we're throwing out prohiitions on homosexual activity should we also throw out prohibitions on adultery? Where does it stop?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      Who gets to decide which parts of God's word we can ignore? At the very least an appeal to Scripture is useful rather than simply saying "ah yes, but things have changed now".

      I must admit I'd really like to see a coherent appeal to Scripture from those who believe homosexual activity should not be regarded as sinful. I'd like to see a reasoned argument that makes the case, such that a mature discussion could be held. But so far the best I've seen amounts to little more than hand-wringing and an insistance that everything is just fine.

      If we're throwing out prohiitions on homosexual activity should we also throw out prohibitions on adultery? Where does it stop?
      And if one part of Gods Word is not relevant or wrong then is the rest of it also? It calls into question God Himself and therefore I reject that thinking. What seems right to man can lead to destruction
      Isaiah 40:31

    3. #13
      Josiah's Avatar
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      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      I think this is a classic case where balance is needed.

      There isn't a single verse in Scripture that says it's a sin to be gay. Being gay is arguably little more than having a set of desires that are different from the majority and those desires, in and of themselves, are not sinful - aside from the object of the desire they are fundamentally no different to my desires for women other than my wife.

      What Scripture does prohibit is homosexual activity - "you shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" for example. And it's not a huge leap of reasoning to figure that what Jesus said about looking upon a woman with lust would apply equally to a man looking upon another man with lust. But there's a big difference between noticing someone and finding them attractive, and lusting after them.

      Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery - "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". The two halves come together perfectly, and so often these days we drop whichever half suits our leanings. Some focus on the "neither do I condemn you" as if to say that anything is good, there's no more condemnation and you're fine. That misses the point of "go and sin no more" - the message is clear - stop doing it. Others focus on the "go and sin no more" as if the best way to get people into the kingdom is to pile condemnation upon them until they stop sinning. This also misses the point of "neither do I condemn you".

      So many people seem to think that homosexuality is some kind of special sin in a league all on its own. You know, I might commit the odd transgression but nothing too serious.... certainly nothing like those nasty icky gay people who do, well, you know, that. But, as Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone". I suspect if the person facing stoning today were a homosexual and the church were faced with Jesus' challenge, most of us would probably mumble and mutter and head home.

      I don't think it's a case of "balance" but of distinction.

      God's love is universal and unconditional; God loves because God is love. So, does God love the murderer, the rapist, the wife beater? Yes. His love is universal and unconditional. GOSPEL

      But God's justice is also universal and unconditional. God HATES evil doers. LAW.

      It's best not to mix Law and Gospel, or to try to blend them together in a way that each diminishes the other until neither exists (having been "cancelled out" by the other).

      God LOVES this man in the same sense that He does all.... eager to be merciful and gracious. But God HATES the wrong in our hearts and minds, in what we think and say and do that is not perfectly in keeping with His will, in what we do and not do that isn't perfectly in full accord with His wisdom, will and heart.

      Of course, the point at which Law and Gospel meet is the Cross.



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      And if one part of Gods Word is not relevant or wrong then is the rest of it also? It calls into question God Himself and therefore I reject that thinking. What seems right to man can lead to destruction
      I think we have to accept that some parts of OT Law were intended for the Israelites and are not relevant to us today (for example the prohibitions on eating pork, cutting the edges of beards etc). The key thing is that if we want to reject parts of it as being cultural rather than eternal we need to be able to explain why one passage is still relevant while another is not. To do little more than indulge in hand-wringing and whining about this group or that group does little to further the cause.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      I don't think it's a case of "balance" but of distinction.

      God's love is universal and unconditional; God loves because God is love. So, does God love the murderer, the rapist, the wife beater? Yes. His love is universal and unconditional. GOSPEL

      But God's justice is also universal and unconditional. God HATES evil doers. LAW.

      It's best not to mix Law and Gospel, or to try to blend them together in a way that each diminishes the other until neither exists (having been "cancelled out" by the other).

      God LOVES this man in the same sense that He does all.... eager to be merciful and gracious. But God HATES the wrong in our hearts and minds, in what we think and say and do that is not perfectly in keeping with His will, in what we do and not do that isn't perfectly in full accord with His wisdom, will and heart.

      Of course, the point at which Law and Gospel meet is the Cross.



      - Josiah
      You make good points here, although to clarify what I was saying about balance I'd note that the balance relates to how we act rather than how God acts. As you say there is the combination of love and justice where God is concerned, and where we are concerned we need to balance the two parts of what Jesus said to the woman in adultery, namely "neither do I condemn you" and "go and sin no more". If we lose the balance we either focus on the lack of condemnation without the call to stop sinning, or we focus on the requirement to stop sinning without the offer of forgiveness.

      Erring one way creates a free-for-all, anything-goes mentality where nothing much matters because we are all forgiven. Erring the other way creates the equivalent of a doctor telling his patients to get better before going to see him.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    7. #17
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      The question I asked isn't whether it's a sin. It's whether God created the man like that or not?
      No, I don't think so. People like to think that because it takes all the responsibility away from the person and puts it on God. If God made me like that then it couldn't be a sin. However if it is a perversion then I am responsible for it

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    9. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      No, I don't think so. People like to think that because it takes all the responsibility away from the person and puts it on God. If God made me like that then it couldn't be a sin. However if it is a perversion then I am responsible for it
      There's also a silly premise at work here: God made cancer, so is cancer THEREFORE good? God made a child of personal friends SEVERELY "downs syndrome" - so that he is very mentally handicapped, can't talk, largely can't function. Is Downs Syndrome THEREFORE a good thing? Just because something IS in this fallen, broken world doesn't THEREFORE mandate that it is good and pleasing to God. It's just a silly premise.

      But I agree with you. The premise is employed to try to suggest we are not responsible for our nature. IMO, the words of the Pope MAY be interpreted as doing just that.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    11. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      No, I don't think so. People like to think that because it takes all the responsibility away from the person and puts it on God. If God made me like that then it couldn't be a sin. However if it is a perversion then I am responsible for it
      I'm not sure this is entirely true. God made me, a heterosexual man, with desires for women. That doesn't mean I can jump into bed with any woman who is willing and figure it's not a sin because "God made me this way".
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    12. #20
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      According to Romans 1 God did not make gay people.

      Romans 1:21-27 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.



      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      "Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

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