Justification - Part 2

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Arsenios

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Mark 1:14-15 [emphasis added]:
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Why did Jesus say that, if His hearers did not have the option of sensibly responding?

==============================================================================================

And don’t forget: Jesus stated of that very Gospel He was teaching at that time (i.e. before He had laid down His life):

Matthew 24:14 [emphasis added]:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13 [emphasis added]:
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

==============================================================================================

In the light of that, we can conclude the following with confidence:

Any proposed meaning of “justification” must be demonstrably compatible with the Gospel of the kingdom that Jesus was personally proclaiming (and that He said should be being proclaimed now).

In the absence of that demonstrable compatibility, the proposed meaning has to be considered undeniably false.

==============================================================================================

One cannot help but wonder why this has not been mentioned yet.

Could it be that Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom is at odds with the contradictory "gospels" being proclaimed by people's churches now?

I could not agree more...

What is being preached is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God...
The presence of the Kindom of God right here and right now...
For the sake of which we are to be repenting that we gain entry...
For God does not GIVE His Kingdom to unrepentant sinners...

Here some think that He gives Justification to unrepentant sinners...
And that these THEN begin repentance...
And nobody mentions the Kingdom of God...
We live in strange times...

Thanks little Rocky!

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Not everybody who hears the gospel has faith.

While what you say is true in western understanding, the Greek intends "HEARS" to mean HEEDS...
So that "hears" means "obeys"...
"HEAR O Israel..." Means "Attend!"... Listen carefully, so as to make no mistake in what you DO...

So Faith does indeed come by hearing, which means obeying...
And the Gospel is an imperative command...
And the children want to insist that Justification come before this hearing...
And THEN we CAN hear/obey...

Strange times indeed...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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While what you say is true in western understanding, the Greek intends "HEARS" to mean HEEDS...
So that "hears" means "obeys"...
"HEAR O Israel..." Means "Attend!"... Listen carefully, so as to make no mistake in what you DO...

So Faith does indeed come by hearing, which means obeying...
And the Gospel is an imperative command...
And the children want to insist that Justification come before this hearing...
And THEN we CAN hear/obey...

Strange times indeed...

Arsenios

In English too, "hear" means "attend!, Listen and obey!" but that is not so in Protestantism. Have you not noticed the tendency to strip down to the barest smallest least compelling meaning evident in Protestantism. Grace become "unmerited favour", justification become "declared righteous", faith become "trust and believe" but never obey and act, repent becomes "be sorry for and ask forgiveness" but never turn around and do good as you serve God. The tendency is to shrink and turn to a minimum. It has its roots in a philosophy that the Catholic Church rejected but that was fashionable in some circles for a century or two surrounding the "reformation" - nominalism it was called - and now the last outpost of that dead philosophy is the "theologies" of Protestantism,
 

Lamb

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Not everybody who hears the gospel has faith. And this thread is about Justification. Your posts imply that you are confident that your faith alone apart from any works will see you through to heaven safe and sound. YOU are confident about that. Romans 10:17 does not mention Lämmchen. So YOU apply it to YOURSELF. It's self confidence. Not a revelation from God. Just YOU being confident about yourself.

It's true that not everyone who hears the gospel has faith because man does reject!! But it is true that faith comes by hearing the Word.

Faith is a gift from God...even the Roman Catholic catechism believes that (we've been through this before). We receive it through no merit of our own. Or decision. My confidence is in Christ Jesus who died for the forgiveness of my sins and God revealed that to me through the Gospel (His word). I could only believe BECAUSE God turned me to Him and gave me faith. I did not work for it and there was no effort on my part. I will take no credit for the justification that is only Christ's and it is now given to me. I have HIS justification because that is already perfect and I cannot be perfect...I'm covered/clothed with His justification as I pointed out in scripture earlier.
 

MoreCoffee

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It's true that not everyone who hears the gospel has faith because man does reject!! But it is true that faith comes by hearing the Word.

Faith is a gift from God...even the Roman Catholic catechism believes that (we've been through this before). We receive it through no merit of our own. Or decision. My confidence is in Christ Jesus who died for the forgiveness of my sins and God revealed that to me through the Gospel (His word). I could only believe BECAUSE God turned me to Him and gave me faith. I did not work for it and there was no effort on my part. I will take no credit for the justification that is only Christ's and it is now given to me. I have HIS justification because that is already perfect and I cannot be perfect...I'm covered/clothed with His justification as I pointed out in scripture earlier.

God's promises are not disputed here. Nor is the meaning of faith, except to remind all that faith is a verb and not a noun, it is about believing and the actions that belief produces because without the actions it cannot be belief as a verb. What is disputed is the self confident claim that you know with absolute certainty as sure and as unalterable as any infallible pronouncement in the holy scriptures that you have real faith and real justification and real salvation. That is disputed because self confident claims such as that are in need of a challenge.
 

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God's promises are not disputed here. Nor is the meaning of faith, except to remind all that faith is a verb and not a noun, it is about believing and the actions that belief produces because without the actions it cannot be belief as a verb. What is disputed is the self confident claim that you know with absolute certainty as sure and as unalterable as any infallible pronouncement in the holy scriptures that you have real faith and real justification and real salvation. That is disputed because self confident claims such as that are in need of a challenge.

Of course salvation backs up my claim:

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealeda righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
 

MennoSota

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Mark 1:14-15 [emphasis added]:
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Why did Jesus say that, if His hearers did not have the option of sensibly responding?

==============================================================================================

And don’t forget: Jesus stated of that very Gospel He was teaching at that time (i.e. before He had laid down His life):

Matthew 24:14 [emphasis added]:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13 [emphasis added]:
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

==============================================================================================

In the light of that, we can conclude the following with confidence:

Any proposed meaning of “justification” must be demonstrably compatible with the Gospel of the kingdom that Jesus was personally proclaiming (and that He said should be being proclaimed now).

In the absence of that demonstrable compatibility, the proposed meaning has to be considered undeniably false.

==============================================================================================

One cannot help but wonder why this has not been mentioned yet.

Could it be that Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom is at odds with the contradictory "gospels" being proclaimed by people's churches now?
All
Scripture is given by inspiration of God
And
Is profitable for correction...
God gives us clarity regarding the Gospel and whom it is that will believe.
You stick to one narrow passage, not intended to be a theological treatise and try to force the rest of scripture into it.
Second, none of what you posted had to do with justification.
 

MennoSota

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Not everybody who hears the gospel has faith. And this thread is about Justification. Your posts imply that you are confident that your faith alone apart from any works will see you through to heaven safe and sound. YOU are confident about that. Romans 10:17 does not mention Lämmchen. So YOU apply it to YOURSELF. It's self confidence. Not a revelation from God. Just YOU being confident about yourself.

MC, this has been addressed, ad naseum. Saving faith reveals itself through the fruit of the Spirit (ie good works). You seem to struggle with this juxtaposition and wish to keep the two separate.
Can anyone separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)
MC, our justification is entirely upon God. If God is not justifying us, then we are certainly damned. If God is justifying us, then we are certainly redeemed.
God alone, MC, God alone.
 

MennoSota

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God's promises are not disputed here. Nor is the meaning of faith, except to remind all that faith is a verb and not a noun, it is about believing and the actions that belief produces because without the actions it cannot be belief as a verb. What is disputed is the self confident claim that you know with absolute certainty as sure and as unalterable as any infallible pronouncement in the holy scriptures that you have real faith and real justification and real salvation. That is disputed because self confident claims such as that are in need of a challenge.
Yet, God knows for certain. You cannot increase your chances by your works as though anything you do could tip the balance. Once you go down that path, you have left grace behind and placed your faith in your own works rather than in Christ alone.
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course salvation backs up my claim:

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealeda righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Let's be truthful about those verses. They are about Paul. Not about Lämmchen.

Romans 1:16 For I [Paul] am not ashamed at all, of this Good News; it is God’s power, saving those who believe, first, the Jews, and then, the Greeks. 17 This Good News shows us the saving justice of God; a justice that saves, exclusively by faith, as the Scripture says: The upright one shall live by faith.

The Just shall live by faith. An echo of what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:7-10

Ephesians 2:7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

The just live good works as their way of life because that is what faith means. So self confident proclamation of one's own faith and salvation is justified only when one's way of life is working the good works that God prepared for the faithful to do. It is no use proclaiming one's own faith without living the life of faith which is good works.
 

Josiah

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In English too, "hear" means "attend!, Listen and obey!" but that is not so in Protestantism. Have you not noticed the tendency to strip down to the barest smallest least compelling meaning evident in Protestantism. Grace become "unmerited favour", justification become "declared righteous", faith become "trust and believe" but never obey and act, repent becomes "be sorry for and ask forgiveness" but never turn around and do good as you serve God. The tendency is to shrink and turn to a minimum. It has its roots in a philosophy that the Catholic Church rejected but that was fashionable in some circles for a century or two surrounding the "reformation" - nominalism it was called - and now the last outpost of that dead philosophy is the "theologies" of Protestantism,


You could not be more wrong.


IMO, Protestants stress discipleship MORE (considerably MORE) than Catholics (at least that is dramatically true comparing my Catholic parish to my current Lutheran one). It's just that Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior and the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life..... then..... WITH the divine GIFTS of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification..... as CHRISTIANS.... we are called to important and BIG things. Things like a LIFE of humility and repentance, a LIFE of loving/giving/serving works toward others, a LIFE of being righteous as God is righteous. The RCC declared that view as heretical, anathematized it, split Western Christianity over it, and still repudiates that view.



.
 
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Let's be truthful about those verses. They are about Paul. Not about Lämmchen.

Romans 1:16 For I [Paul] am not ashamed at all, of this Good News; it is God’s power, saving those who believe, first, the Jews, and then, the Greeks. 17 This Good News shows us the saving justice of God; a justice that saves, exclusively by faith, as the Scripture says: The upright one shall live by faith.

The Just shall live by faith. An echo of what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:7-10

Ephesians 2:7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.

The just live good works as their way of life because that is what faith means. So self confident proclamation of one's own faith and salvation is justified only when one's way of life is working the good works that God prepared for the faithful to do. It is no use proclaiming one's own faith without living the life of faith which is good works.

Look what you wrote "the just shall..."

Do you see that because we are the just (since we are in Christ) that we WILL do good works but that doesn't make us the just in the first place?

Living out our faith does not mean working for salvation. Christ did the work for our salvation and has eased our burden... Christ gives us rest. Believe it!

God WANTS you to be sure in your salvation with joy and peace. When you look to yourself to contribute any part of it then you'll have doubt and fears but that's not the Gospel message!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 

Josiah

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Review this....


The Gospel of Justification. The view the RCC in 1551 officially anathamatized and condemned as heresy and has repudiated ever since:


By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God, the GIVING of the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit. We do NOT mean all that results of these gifts and actions by God, what CHRISTIANS (those with the gifts of life, faith and justification) are called to do (that's Sanctification in the narrow sense) - in that, there is (and always has been) essential agreement between Catholicism and (most of) Protestantism. So the debate, the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity today has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what Christians are called to do, those WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed, it's how one RECEIVES that.


Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, singular, inseparable doctrine. THIS is what the RCC so powerfully repudiates, this is what divides western Christianity and has for 500 years.


Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation (here in the sense of narrow justification) flows from God’s heart – not ours. It is the fruit of God's works/achievements - not ours. Grace in justification is God’s unmerited, unconditional love/favor/gift. God's mercy in NOT treating us as we deserve but of God's grace in giving us what we don't deserve and did not merit.


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. In justification, it is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty. We look to the Cross ( not in the mirror) to see the Savior. There is a life GIVER (as the ancient creed stresses) - and it's not dead self (1 John 5:11-12)


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith in this context means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.” It too is the gift of God.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life (Justification, narrow) John 3:16


"You were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)
“God is love!” (1 John 1:8)
“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16)
“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
"This is our testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12)
“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),
“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)
“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Our justification (narrow) is the result of GOD’S heart, will and work – not our own. Nor is this a mixture of our works and His works so that Jesus is PARTLY the Savior and we are PARTLY the Savior (synergistic Pelagianism), no, Jesus IS the SAVIOR. If it has to do with salvation (justification, narrow) then it's Jesus' doing and gift. We are to keep our hearts and faith focused squarely and only on Jesus who ALONE is THE Savior. How spiritual life is the gift of God. All this is the free gift of God, not because of what the Dead do for self lest any should have reason to boast of self and render Christ irrelevant in this regard.



A word about faith…

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“We are justified by faith” Romans 5:1
“God justifies he who has faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:26


The word “faith” in this context means to rely, to trust. In its use here, it means to rely on Christ for Salvation (and beyond). It is the means by which we embrace the promise and the work of Christ.

Faith in this context is not just (or even primarily) a cognitive or mental thing, it means to place our trust, our life in another – to rely. When we ride in an airplane, we may not understand exactly how the plane flies – but we can board the plane and literally entrust our very lives to it. We may submit to surgery and to a surgeon whom we don’t even know (and who doesn’t know us) and have no idea what will happen – literally entrusting our very life to him/her. Trust is a key factor in lives (to not trust is to be paranoid). For a Christian, we trust our soul and much of our life to God. In salvation, we trust in His works rather than in our own, we look to HIS perfect life rather than our sinful one, to His death rather than the one we deserve. We are placing our lives in His loving hands.

Faith is not our doing, it is the ‘gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)







.



See next post as well....
 

Josiah

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Consider the following....



A word about OUR works…


The "debate," the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity is not now and never has been what is true for Christians, for those justified (narrow), for those with the divine gift of life, faith and Holy Spirit (an issue theologically called "Sanctification" narrow). Everyone has always agreed that once justified, once given those Gifts, MANY truths come into play - including a life of humility, a life of repentance, a life of loving, a life of morality, a life of good works toward our neighbor, etc., etc, etc., etc. and that indeed the Holy Spirit we now HAVE directs and empower such (so that the CHRISTIAN response is synergistic and progressive) and indeed God rewards CHRISTIANS for this and indeed the lack of such may suggests the lack of justification or eventually may result in our wrecking our faith and thus terminating this gift of justification. No disagreement there, as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed for over 500 years. That's not the debate. The debate is about the application of the "FREE GIFT" of God - of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (narrow). The RCC called the Lutheran/Protestant view in the post above "heresy" - SO horrible it split Western Christianity over it.



On the one hand, Justification (narrow) is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!).

On the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us, but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.



Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be conceived and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.


Messing this up undermines everything When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined. In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.


Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ! So Lutherans (and most Protestants) proclaim. It resulted in the third largest split in Christianity in 1500 years.



- Josiah





.
 

MoreCoffee

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Autonomous was a poor word choice. However, Adam somehow "responding" by breathing (suggesting a conscious effort to breathe) doesn't really align with basic anatomy. Breathing (taking breath in and out) doesn't require effort from us. Certainly there's the concept of a child holding his breath "until he turns blue", but no parent would worry as breathing would begin again on its own as a natural response of the body attempting to sustain life.

Adam's body became able to sustain life. Adam did not sustain his own (in that scenario). I'm merely suggesting a better example could have been chosen

Anyway, I'm not sweating it - Menno didn't even give me a 'like' for agreeing with him. :p

Yes, we get lungs with which to breathe and a nervous system that involuntarily breathes when we sleep and are unconscious and that breathes more or less without direct conscious control when we wake. The point being that it is we who breathe even though the process is "automatic". God does not send an angel to keep us breathing. We breathe. Not somebody else. The same is true of faith, we believe and we work the works of faith not somebody else. No angel comes to believe for us nor to work the works of faith for us. We do it.
 

Josiah

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Yes, we get lungs with which to breathe and a nervous system that involuntarily breathes when we sleep and are unconscious and that breathes more or less without direct conscious control when we wake. The point being that it is we who breathe even though the process is "automatic". God does not send an angel to keep us breathing. We breathe. Not somebody else. The same is true of faith, we believe and we work the works of faith not somebody else. No angel comes to believe for us nor to work the works of faith for us. We do it.


Pure evasion.....


YES, as all have said for 2000 years including Luther and Calvin and every Protestant known to me, YES... ABSOLUTELY.... UNQUESTIONABLY... UNDENIABLY.... those who are alive are to live. Yes, those GIVEN life are to live it. No one disputes that, no one says the silly opposite. There is no significant difference in our view of the CHRISTIAN life.


Yes, those physically alive breathe.... yup, that's fairly typical and can be said as sound and true generalization. It can even be said that those who aren't breathing are probably not alive. Yup. Not a LOT of debate over that, at least as a generalization (although some Catholics TRY to MAKE that a debate). The point you must evade is that God GAVE us that life - which results in our (eventually) breathing, it's not the other way around and it's not a synergistic progressive thing of our breathing and God causing our conception. NO ONE caused themselves to be conceived in their mother's womb by breathing air. I realize that's a shocker to some but it's true. And NO ONE caused their own Dead self to gain the divine GIFT of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification by jumping through a long, never-ending list of Catholic Hoops.


The "debate," the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity is not now and never has been what is true for Christians, for those justified (narrow), for those with the divine gift of life, faith and Holy Spirit (an issue theologically called "Sanctification" narrow). Everyone has always agreed that once justified, once given those Gifts, MANY truths come into play - including a life of humility, a life of repentance, a life of loving, a life of morality, a life of good works toward our neighbor, etc., etc, etc., etc. and that indeed the Holy Spirit we now HAVE directs and empower such (so that the CHRISTIAN response is synergistic and progressive) and indeed God rewards CHRISTIANS for this and indeed the lack of such may suggests the lack of justification or eventually may result in our wrecking our faith and thus terminating this gift of justification. No disagreement there, as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed for over 500 years. That's not the debate. The debate is about the application of the "FREE GIFT" of God - of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (narrow). The RCC called this Lutheran/Protestant view "heresy" - SO horrible it split Western Christianity over it.



On the one hand
, Justification (narrow) is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!). And YES, undeniably, unquestionably, on the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us (in this sense of narrow justification), but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.


Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Those who are spiritually DEAD don't do much spiritually (at least not good). Those without physical life probably don't breathe - and therefore probably can't give self conception by breathing. Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be conceived and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.




Messing this up undermines everything! When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined. In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.


Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ! So Lutherans (and most Protestants) proclaim. It resulted in the third largest split in Christianity in 1500 years.



- Josiah




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MennoSota

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Yes, we get lungs with which to breathe and a nervous system that involuntarily breathes when we sleep and are unconscious and that breathes more or less without direct conscious control when we wake. The point being that it is we who breathe even though the process is "automatic". God does not send an angel to keep us breathing. We breathe. Not somebody else.
Scripture disagrees.
Colossians 1:15-17
[15]Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. *** He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
[16]for through him God created everything *** in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see *** and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. *** Everything was created through him and for him.
[17]He existed before anything else, *** and he holds all creation together.
The same is true of faith, we believe and we work the works of faith not somebody else. No angel comes to believe for us nor to work the works of faith for us. We do it.
We are the vessel through whom God gives faith and produces good works.
Apart from God we can do nothing.
John 15
[5]“Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.
 

Lamb

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Yes, we get lungs with which to breathe and a nervous system that involuntarily breathes when we sleep and are unconscious and that breathes more or less without direct conscious control when we wake. The point being that it is we who breathe even though the process is "automatic". God does not send an angel to keep us breathing. We breathe. Not somebody else. The same is true of faith, we believe and we work the works of faith not somebody else. No angel comes to believe for us nor to work the works of faith for us. We do it.

We do good works because the Holy Spirit lives in us and guides us to do them. But it's because of Jesus' death on the cross that we GET to do good works (not have to do them). The bottom line will always be the Savior, not us for our salvation.
 

MoreCoffee

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We do good works because the Holy Spirit lives in us and guides us to do them. But it's because of Jesus' death on the cross that we GET to do good works (not have to do them). The bottom line will always be the Savior, not us for our salvation.

As you say "We do good works". That is the point. We do them. Not somebody else.
 

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As you say "We do good works". That is the point. We do them. Not somebody else.

A fish swims, a bird flies....a Christian does good works.

We don't do good works to earn our way to heaven. It just doesn't work that way. Only Christ could earn that spot for us.
 
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