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    Christian Theology - Thread: Justification - Part 2

    1. #21
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      How many posts will it take for people to give up adding human works to their justification before the Almighty God? How long will it take for people to admit that there is nothing good within their being and that all goodness is found solely in Christ and Christ alone?
      As long as people want to argue that it is "God...plus me" there will be a distinct disagreement. It can only be "God and God alone."
      As long as they assume that you are against good charitable works in Jesus name as Gods workmanship they will stay on the defense... those works will not sustain justification, "it IS finished!" but again like I said, we are called to be Gods workmanship.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      As long as they assume that you are against good charitable works in Jesus name as Gods workmanship they will stay on the defense... those works will not sustain justification, "it IS finished!" but again like I said, we are called to be Gods workmanship.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      Charitable actions have nothing to do with being justified before God. Even Hitler could be kind to people. But, the human condition is corrupted nonetheless. No amount of human effort can remove this corruption. Only Christ Jesus is not corrupt. God and God alone.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Charitable actions have nothing to do with being justified before God. Even Hitler could be kind to people. But, the human condition is corrupted nonetheless. No amount of human effort can remove this corruption. Only Christ Jesus is not corrupt. God and God alone.
      Then why does Paul use this language?

      There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      Then why does Paul use this language?

      There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
      Great question. The key phrase is: "in Christ Jesus." Our justification is "in Christ Jesus" not in our selves.
      As I said, we are corrupt. Paul bemoans this very fact in Romans 7 when he cries out, "Who will deliver me from this body of death." The answer is found..."in Christ Jesus."
      God and God alone.

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    6. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2
      There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death..

      Bingo.



      In a similar sense, one might say, "There is life in them to whom God gave it and who breathe." But does that mean that our breathing is the cause of our life? Things, at times, are ASSOCIATED.. but association does not even imply causation. The LIFE the Holy Spirit GAVE us (as many here proclaimed yesterday in church, ".... we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life...")... the faith the Spirit gave us.... the justification Jesus gave us.... yup, that's now joined with a lot of things (for example, a profound sense of humility/repentance) but that doesn't make Christianity heretical (or LUther when he affirmed it). This association does not mandate that THEREFORE we earn and achieve that life/faith/justification/Holy Spirit by our good work of repentance.

      NOTE: Everyone agreed 500 years ago.... and everyone agrees now.... that the CHRISTIAN (one with justification, life, faith, Holy Spirit, love, etc.) THEREFORE is called to many things, that many things are now joined to it. We agree pretty much on what that is, we agree that God empowers and directs us in and to such (that it's synergistic), that such is processive (and not always in a stright line), that God rewards such, that the lack of such may mean the lack of justification, that the wilful rejection of such can wreck our faith and terminate justification.... Luther said that and the RCC then totally agreed, and Luther totally agreed with the RCC on all that.... that's never been the dispute and it isn't now, that had NOTHING to do with the Reformation or the dispute or the split in Christianity the RCC caused. As the RCC itself so powerfully stressed, the issue was (and is) JUSTIFICATION (in that narrow sense that is separate from what is true AFTER it) and that is the topic of this thread. What Luther/Lutherans said on JUSTIFICATION was what the RCC anathematized, condemned, repudiated and split itself over. See post # 16.




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    7. #26
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      It is absolutely true that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Yet the question is "who is in Christ Jesus"? Many say that they are. Some are absolutely confident that they are. Only God knows with certainty who is.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    8. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      It is absolutely true that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Yet the question is "who is in Christ Jesus"? Many say that they are. Some are absolutely confident that they are. Only God knows with certainty who is.
      We can't know who else has it...but there's this thing...it's called faith. That's how I know I'm justified by Christ and am confident I'll have everlasting life since I'm in Christ Jesus.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    9. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      We can't know who else has it...but there's this thing...it's called faith. That's how I know I'm justified by Christ and am confident I'll have everlasting life since I'm in Christ Jesus.
      So you are confident that your faith will see you though? It isn't God's promises then. Just your confidence about your faith. Everybody can see God's promises and many claim to be confident that those promises apply to them. Time will tell. Self confidence is, according to some, a commendable thing.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    10. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      So you are confident that your faith will see you though? It isn't God's promises then. Just your confidence about your faith. Everybody can see God's promises and many claim to be confident that those promises apply to them. Time will tell. Self confidence is, according to some, a commendable thing.
      We don't have faith in faith. We have faith in the Savior.

      Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    12. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      We don't have faith in faith. We have faith in the Savior.
      But you are confident that you do have faith. Confident that you have properly identified what you have as faith in Jesus Christ. Confident that it is not self deception. Confident that it is what the bible says you ought to have. YOU are confident about all that. Self confident.

      Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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