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  • Page 85 of 90 FirstFirst ... 35758384858687 ... LastLast
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    Christian Theology - Thread: Justification - Part 2

    1. #841
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      I'll simplify...
      Justification = God alone
      I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #842
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Ya both should read the Bible and drop your denominational dogma, then you won't be confused. The EO has you all messed up.
      Does this mean you are no longer obsessing over your "butts"??

      Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

      Besides, that obsession of yours is not a good thing to discuss on a theology discussion board...

      Obsessing over another's obsession is a good obsession to overcome, I say!

      So I need a few more minutes of repentance here!

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 06-14-2018 at 11:07 AM.

    3. #843
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Justification = God alone
      It is good that we agree on this...

      Rom 8:29-30
      For whom He did Foreknow,
      He also did Foreordain...
      Moreover whom He did Foreordain,
      them He also Called:
      and whom He Called,
      them He also Justified:
      and whom He Justified,
      them He also Glorified


      So that there are 5 very sequential stages in how God saves man on earth:

      1: God Foreknowing man
      2: God Foreordaining man
      3: God Calling man
      4: God Justifying man
      5: God Glorifying man

      God DOES all these things...
      Man does NONE of these things...

      So what does man have to DO, since God does all 5?

      And the answer is found in #3, God CALLING man...
      What does the Call of God to Man call man to DO?

      By your false theory, God calls man to do nothing but sit around waiting for his Justification by God...

      The Witness of the Body of Christ for the entire 2000 year history of the Church...
      Accurately understands this Holy Calling to be unto our Repenting...
      And then based on our repenting, God Justifies us...
      And then based on our continued repenting, God Glorifies us...
      Then we pass from this earth!
      Martyrdom, for instance, is Glorification of man by God...
      So too are the higher Gifts...

      And it is ALL God's doing...
      Through our obedience to God (replacing Adam's disobedience...)
      OUR part in the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...
      IS our obedience to Christ...
      Christ's part is the Call of God to us, His Justification/Sanctification of us, and our Glorification by Him...

      I suspect the problem with many Protestant believers is that they misunderstand the Calling of God to be Justification BY God... They think that their first deep encounter with the Holy Spirit IS Salvation, rather than the profoundly Holy Calling of God UNTO Salvation... And for this reason, they think that Baptism is Spiritual apart from the Baptism of Christ in His Body, the Ekklesia, by triple immersion in the Waters of Regeneration as Christ Himself was Baptized by John...

      Well, Menno, at least we agree that Justification is by God alone...
      We disagree on what standards He uses for us to BE Justified BY God...
      And you have not yet even mentioned Glorification by God...
      Nor have you mentioned the Calling of God...
      Yet Justification is sequenced between these two...

      You think there are no standards whatsoever...

      I think the standard is our repenting from sin and turning to Him after being Called by Him...

      Be at Peace, my Brother...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 06-14-2018 at 11:14 AM.

    4. #844
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?
      Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

      I admire your optimism!

      Arsenios

    5. Likes MoreCoffee liked this post
    6. #845
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Does this mean you are no longer obsessing over your "butts"??

      Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

      Besides, that obsession of yours is not a good thing to discuss on a theology discussion board...

      Obsessing over another's obsession is a good obsession to overcome, I say!

      So I need a few more minutes of repentance here!

      Arsenios
      It means you still nullify God's grace.

    7. #846
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      It is good that we agree on this...

      Rom 8:29-30
      For whom He did Foreknow,
      He also did Foreordain...
      Moreover whom He did Foreordain,
      them He also Called:
      and whom He Called,
      them He also Justified:
      and whom He Justified,
      them He also Glorified


      So that there are 5 very sequential stages in how God saves man on earth:

      1: God Foreknowing man
      2: God Foreordaining man
      3: God Calling man
      4: God Justifying man
      5: God Glorifying man

      God DOES all these things...
      Man does NONE of these things...

      So what does man have to DO, since God does all 5?

      And the answer is found in #3, God CALLING man...
      What does the Call of God to Man call man to DO?

      By your false theory, God calls man to do nothing but sit around waiting for his Justification by God...

      The Witness of the Body of Christ for the entire 2000 year history of the Church...
      Accurately understands this Holy Calling to be unto our Repenting...
      And then based on our repenting, God Justifies us...
      And then based on our continued repenting, God Glorifies us...
      Then we pass from this earth!
      Martyrdom, for instance, is Glorification of man by God...
      So too are the higher Gifts...

      And it is ALL God's doing...
      Through our obedience to God (replacing Adam's disobedience...)
      OUR part in the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...
      IS our obedience to Christ...
      Christ's part is the Call of God to us, His Justification/Sanctification of us, and our Glorification by Him...

      I suspect the problem with many Protestant believers is that they misunderstand the Calling of God to be Justification BY God... They think that their first deep encounter with the Holy Spirit IS Salvation, rather than the profoundly Holy Calling of God UNTO Salvation... And for this reason, they think that Baptism is Spiritual apart from the Baptism of Christ in His Body, the Ekklesia, by triple immersion in the Waters of Regeneration as Christ Himself was Baptized by John...

      Well, Menno, at least we agree that Justification is by God alone...
      We disagree on what standards He uses for us to BE Justified BY God...
      And you have not yet even mentioned Glorification by God...
      Nor have you mentioned the Calling of God...
      Yet Justification is sequenced between these two...

      You think there are no standards whatsoever...

      I think the standard is our repenting from sin and turning to Him after being Called by Him...

      Be at Peace, my Brother...

      Arsenios
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

      I admire your optimism!

      Arsenios
      One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?

    8. #847
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?
      I wonder why it is that you won't engage in sincere discussion. You've been asked some rather involved questions to flesh out your answer a bit, but you answer with a question that does not address any of the posts you've quoted. So I will ask as well -

      How is it that that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" model of Justification that you promote here? I've never fancied being an un-involved robot or puppet on a string just waiting to be plucked up and danced about - but this view of God's Justification clearly doesn't work and will never work; UNLESS you can explain HOW it works
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

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    10. #848
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      I wonder why it is that you won't engage in sincere discussion. You've been asked some rather involved questions to flesh out your answer a bit, but you answer with a question that does not address any of the posts you've quoted. So I will ask as well -

      How is it that that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" model of Justification that you promote here? I've never fancied being an un-involved robot or puppet on a string just waiting to be plucked up and danced about - but this view of God's Justification clearly doesn't work and will never work; UNLESS you can explain HOW it works
      My question is simple.
      God justifies. Men have no authority to justify.
      Next: Does God require work from humans in order to merit their justification, which God determines? This gets at the same issue in Ephesians 2:8-9. Is there something that we can boast about regarding God's choice to justify us? No. Anything we do will fall utterly short. God will never look at us and declare that our actions are good, meaning holy. Our actions are not holy. They can never be holy. They can only be corrupt attempts. We fall short.
      So, how are we justified, since our corruption is so utterly unholy?
      Paul answers this in Romans 8. "Thanks be to Christ..."
      God justifies us because Jesus makes us holy and righteous by being our substitute.
      People who are obsessing on James 2 miss the fact that James is not addressing spiritual justification before God. James is specifically addressing whether we can justify if we have faith or not. James is dealing with an entirely different issue, not with the substitutionary justification that happens only by God and God alone. God is the only Sovereign and therefore is the only one who has the power and authority to justify someone.
      Question: Are humans able to boast that their actions justified themselves before God?

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    12. #849
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?
      I know right? Gosh I hate it when the bible makes typos! .... It should be "know ye that we are Justified by God alone"
      also I do agree btw

    13. #850
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

      I admire your optimism!

      Arsenios
      With patience and prayer miracles can happen.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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