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    Christian Theology - Thread: Justification - Part 2

    1. #1
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      Justification

      Most of the bible was written either in Hebrew or Greek. Some parts are in Aramaic and maybe a little Latin is present in this or that part of the four canonical gospels and there may be a phrase here and there of Persian or Babylonian or even Egyptian origin. But for the most part a scholar who knows ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek will be equipped to read the scriptures in their allegedly original languages - I say allegedly original because it is possible that some parts of the first books of the old testament may have been written in languages other than Hebrew but translated into Hebrew at some time in the remote past.

      In theology some words take on very specific meanings that are sharply defined in each Christian tradition. One such word is Justification. Saint Paul uses the Greek word "δικαίωσις" for "justification" numerous times in his letters but it is less frequently used in the other new testament books and, or course, in the Hebrew language a different word "צָדַק" is used and translated as "justification" or "justify" or "justified". But for some theologians the main focus for their tightly defined meaning for "justification" is found in saint Paul's letters.

      In Protestant traditions the word "Justification" is sometimes taken to mean "Just as if I'd never sinned" with very strong emphasis on courtroom and legal explanations of the word which amount to something like "just as if I'd never sinned". In Catholic tradition that is not so.

      Catholic teaching places more emphasis in Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

      It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

      If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

      God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion.

      This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here. by MoreCoffee Titled Justification
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #2
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      This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You seem to miss the theology in the song
      based upon your insistence in saying that
      man repents before God saves.
      Thus, you disagree with the song at its fundamental premise.
      Perhaps this is just a big blind spot for you.
      Let me repeat: "Your heart is in much better shape than your head..."

      "You (O God) alone can Save us..."
      This is the lovely premise of the song...

      God saves those who turn from sin...
      God does not save those who do not...

      The Gospel command is to turn from sin...
      For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

      Man has the God-given power of free will to do so or not...
      But only in this fallen and brief and earthly life...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 05-20-2018 at 07:28 PM.

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      Arsenios wrote:
      God saves those who turn from sin...

      God does not save those who do not...

      The Gospel command is to turn from sin...

      For theKingdom of Heaven is at hand...

      Man has the God-given power of free will to do so or not...
      You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
      1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work) of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
      2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin. The unsaved are powerless to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
      3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.

    6. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
      1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work)
      Adam had to breathe before he was able to speak and acknowledge God. It was a human work that preceded and formed a part of his response to God. The breath of life was a gift from God to Adam and Adam had to use it to fulfil the plan of God for him. Why are you so opposed to human beings doing what God wants them to do as a part of God's plan for humanity? Is it because you haven't got a clue what a human action is and what it means in the divine plan for creation?

      of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
      2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin.
      The gospel started with the words "repent and believe" both of which are actions to be taken by human beings. Adam was 'dead' when God gave him the breath of life and Adam's response was to breathe. Lazarus was 'dead' in his tomb when Jesus called him saying "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus heard and came forth both of which were human actions. So obviously the dead do respond to God's call to them.

      The unsaved are powerless
      The saved are powerless because everybody is powerless unless God empowers them. God empowers the "unsaved" to respond to the message and repent as well as believe the gospel.

      to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
      3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Adam had to breathe before he was able to speak and acknowledge God. It was a human work that preceded and formed a part of his response to God. The breath of life was a gift from God to Adam and Adam had to use it to fulfil the plan of God for him. Why are you so opposed to human beings doing what God wants them to do as a part of God's plan for humanity? Is it because you haven't got a clue what a human action is and what it means in the divine plan for creation?
      This is just bad logic on your part. Breathing is autonomous. God breathed...


      The gospel started with the words "repent and believe" both of which are actions to be taken by human beings. Adam was 'dead' when God gave him the breath of life and Adam's response was to breathe. Lazarus was 'dead' in his tomb when Jesus called him saying "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus heard and came forth both of which were human actions. So obviously the dead do respond to God's call to them.
      The gospel is this:
      1) Christ died for your sin, according to the scriptures.
      2) Christ rose from the dead, according to the scriptures.
      3) Believe it.
      Only those to whom God grants faith will believe. The rest will consider it foolishness...as the scriptures clearly tell us.
      It is apparent that you have a different gospel that requires works on your part in order to be saved. That gospel is not biblically supported.

      The saved are powerless because everybody is powerless unless God empowers them.
      The unsaved are powerless unless God makes them alive.
      God empowers the "unsaved" to respond to the message and repent as well as believe the gospel.
      God makes the dead alive in Christ Jesus. Once they are made alive, they can repent. This is clearly taught in Ephesians, Colossians and Romans.

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      Wow this discussion is growing an arm and a leg.
      Works come after God justifies. the end
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 05-20-2018 at 09:13 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      This is just bad logic on your part. Breathing is autonomous. God breathed...
      Mark this moment. This may well be the only time have ever agreed with you
      I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide...
      But I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride..
      - Dream Theater

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
      1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work) of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
      2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin. The unsaved are powerless to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
      3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.
      Your heart is much better configured than your fallen human reasoning...

      Arsenios

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    13. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Wow this discussion is growing an arm and a leg.
      Works come after God justifies. the end
      Works come with being born...
      Good and/or evil is a human choice in this fallen life...

      Arsenios

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