Justification - Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Justification

Most of the bible was written either in Hebrew or Greek. Some parts are in Aramaic and maybe a little Latin is present in this or that part of the four canonical gospels and there may be a phrase here and there of Persian or Babylonian or even Egyptian origin. But for the most part a scholar who knows ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek will be equipped to read the scriptures in their allegedly original languages - I say allegedly original because it is possible that some parts of the first books of the old testament may have been written in languages other than Hebrew but translated into Hebrew at some time in the remote past.

In theology some words take on very specific meanings that are sharply defined in each Christian tradition. One such word is Justification. Saint Paul uses the Greek word "δικαίωσις" for "justification" numerous times in his letters but it is less frequently used in the other new testament books and, or course, in the Hebrew language a different word "צָדַק" is used and translated as "justification" or "justify" or "justified". But for some theologians the main focus for their tightly defined meaning for "justification" is found in saint Paul's letters.

In Protestant traditions the word "Justification" is sometimes taken to mean "Just as if I'd never sinned" with very strong emphasis on courtroom and legal explanations of the word which amount to something like "just as if I'd never sinned". In Catholic tradition that is not so.

Catholic teaching places more emphasis in Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here. by MoreCoffee Titled Justification
 

Support

Christianity Haven Support
Joined
Jun 6, 2015
Messages
58
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You seem to miss the theology in the song
based upon your insistence in saying that
man repents before God saves.
Thus, you disagree with the song at its fundamental premise.
Perhaps this is just a big blind spot for you.

Let me repeat: "Your heart is in much better shape than your head..."

"You (O God) alone can Save us..."
This is the lovely premise of the song...

God saves those who turn from sin...
God does not save those who do not...

The Gospel command is to turn from sin...
For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...

Man has the God-given power of free will to do so or not...
But only in this fallen and brief and earthly life...

Arsenios
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Arsenios wrote:
God saves those who turn from sin...

God does not save those who do not...

The Gospel command is to turn from sin...

For theKingdom of Heaven is at hand...

Man has the God-given power of free will to do so or not...
You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work) of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin. The unsaved are powerless to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work)

Adam had to breathe before he was able to speak and acknowledge God. It was a human work that preceded and formed a part of his response to God. The breath of life was a gift from God to Adam and Adam had to use it to fulfil the plan of God for him. Why are you so opposed to human beings doing what God wants them to do as a part of God's plan for humanity? Is it because you haven't got a clue what a human action is and what it means in the divine plan for creation?

of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin.

The gospel started with the words "repent and believe" both of which are actions to be taken by human beings. Adam was 'dead' when God gave him the breath of life and Adam's response was to breathe. Lazarus was 'dead' in his tomb when Jesus called him saying "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus heard and came forth both of which were human actions. So obviously the dead do respond to God's call to them.

The unsaved are powerless

The saved are powerless because everybody is powerless unless God empowers them. God empowers the "unsaved" to respond to the message and repent as well as believe the gospel.

to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Adam had to breathe before he was able to speak and acknowledge God. It was a human work that preceded and formed a part of his response to God. The breath of life was a gift from God to Adam and Adam had to use it to fulfil the plan of God for him. Why are you so opposed to human beings doing what God wants them to do as a part of God's plan for humanity? Is it because you haven't got a clue what a human action is and what it means in the divine plan for creation?
This is just bad logic on your part. Breathing is autonomous. God breathed...


The gospel started with the words "repent and believe" both of which are actions to be taken by human beings. Adam was 'dead' when God gave him the breath of life and Adam's response was to breathe. Lazarus was 'dead' in his tomb when Jesus called him saying "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus heard and came forth both of which were human actions. So obviously the dead do respond to God's call to them.
The gospel is this:
1) Christ died for your sin, according to the scriptures.
2) Christ rose from the dead, according to the scriptures.
3) Believe it.
Only those to whom God grants faith will believe. The rest will consider it foolishness...as the scriptures clearly tell us.
It is apparent that you have a different gospel that requires works on your part in order to be saved. That gospel is not biblically supported.

The saved are powerless because everybody is powerless unless God empowers them.
The unsaved are powerless unless God makes them alive.
God empowers the "unsaved" to respond to the message and repent as well as believe the gospel.
God makes the dead alive in Christ Jesus. Once they are made alive, they can repent. This is clearly taught in Ephesians, Colossians and Romans.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Wow this discussion is growing an arm and a leg.
Works come after God justifies. the end [emoji41]
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
This is just bad logic on your part. Breathing is autonomous. God breathed...

Mark this moment. This may well be the only time have ever agreed with you
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You seem blind to the works salvation message you wrote in the above quote.
1) You demand that the human must first perform a human act (work) of turning from sin before God can save them. You essentially attempt to hamstring God and make God dependent on the human will.
2) The gospel does tell Christians to turn from sin. The unsaved are powerless to do so because the Bible tells us they are dead in their trespasses and sins. You want a dead person to perform an act before God can make them alive. There is no possible way it can be done.
3) Free-will is a human creation, concocted by rebellious humans as a means by which they attempt to control God and their own destiny. It is a philosophy that is unsupported by Scripture. If you want to repent, repent of holding to a pagan philosophy that belittles God's supremacy and sovereignty.

Your heart is much better configured than your fallen human reasoning...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Wow this discussion is growing an arm and a leg.
Works come after God justifies. the end [emoji41]

Works come with being born...
Good and/or evil is a human choice in this fallen life...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Your inability to be biblically accurate is shown by your response.
Your heart is much better configured than your fallen human reasoning...

Arsenios
You think you are rightly dividing the word of God, but your premise that man freely chooses God is wrong and demonstrated throughout scripture. Merely study the word "chosen" and you will see your error.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Works come with being born...
Good and/or evil is a human choice in this fallen life...

Arsenios
All humanity is born corrupted. There is only corrupted behavior, which means...it ain't good.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,492
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Wow this discussion is growing an arm and a leg.
Works come after God justifies. the end [emoji41]

:arms: I agree. I was just about to say that 1000 posts ought to be some sort of limit, not just the point at which the topic rolls over and starts anew. :yikes:
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Mark this moment. This may well be the only time have ever agreed with you

MennoSota wrote "This is just bad logic on your part. Breathing is autonomous. God breathed..." and the quote above is your reply, friend ImaginaryDay2. "autonomous" - an interesting claim to make about human beings coming from MennoSota who appears to support Calvinism's endless war against autonomy.
 

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Autonomous was a poor word choice. However, Adam somehow "responding" by breathing (suggesting a conscious effort to breathe) doesn't really align with basic anatomy. Breathing (taking breath in and out) doesn't require effort from us. Certainly there's the concept of a child holding his breath "until he turns blue", but no parent would worry as breathing would begin again on its own as a natural response of the body attempting to sustain life.

Adam's body became able to sustain life. Adam did not sustain his own (in that scenario). I'm merely suggesting a better example could have been chosen

Anyway, I'm not sweating it - Menno didn't even give me a 'like' for agreeing with him. :p
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Gospel of Justification. The view the RCC in 1551 officially anathamatized and condemned as heresy and has repudiated ever since:


By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God, the GIVING of the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit. We do NOT mean all that results of these gifts and actions by God, what CHRISTIANS (those with the gifts of life, faith and justification) are called to do (that's Sanctification in the narrow sense) - in that, there is (and always has been) essential agreement between Catholicism and (most of) Protestantism. So the debate, the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity today has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with what Christians are called to do, those WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed, it's how one RECEIVES that.


Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, singular, inseparable doctrine. THIS is what the RCC so powerfully repudiates, this is what divides western Christianity and has for 500 years.


Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation (here in the sense of narrow justification) flows from God’s heart – not ours. It is the fruit of God's works/achievements - not ours. Grace in justification is God’s unmerited, unconditional love/favor/gift. God's mercy in NOT treating us as we deserve but of God's grace in giving us what we don't deserve and did not merit.


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. In justification, it is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty. We look to the Cross ( not in the mirror) to see the Savior. There is a life GIVER (as the ancient creed stresses) - and it's not dead self (1 John 5:11-12)


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith in this context means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.” It too is the gift of God.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life (Justification, narrow) John 3:16


"You were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)
“God is love!” (1 John 1:8)
“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16)
“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
"This is our testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12)
“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),
“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)
“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Our justification (narrow) is the result of GOD’S heart, will and work – not our own. Nor is this a mixture of our works and His works so that Jesus is PARTLY the Savior and we are PARTLY the Savior (synergistic Pelagianism), no, Jesus IS the SAVIOR. If it has to do with salvation (justification, narrow) then it's Jesus' doing and gift. We are to keep our hearts and faith focused squarely and only on Jesus who ALONE is THE Savior. How spiritual life is the gift of God. All this is the free gift of God, not because of what the Dead do for self lest any should have reason to boast of self and render Christ irrelevant in this regard.



A word about faith…

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“We are justified by faith” Romans 5:1
“God justifies he who has faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:26


The word “faith” in this context means to rely, to trust. In its use here, it means to rely on Christ for Salvation (and beyond). It is the means by which we embrace the promise and the work of Christ.

Faith in this context is not just (or even primarily) a cognitive or mental thing, it means to place our trust, our life in another – to rely. When we ride in an airplane, we may not understand exactly how the plane flies – but we can board the plane and literally entrust our very lives to it. We may submit to surgery and to a surgeon whom we don’t even know (and who doesn’t know us) and have no idea what will happen – literally entrusting our very life to him/her. Trust is a key factor in lives (to not trust is to be paranoid). For a Christian, we trust our soul and much of our life to God. In salvation, we trust in His works rather than in our own, we look to HIS perfect life rather than our sinful one, to His death rather than the one we deserve. We are placing our lives in His loving hands.

Faith is not our doing, it is the ‘gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)



SEE NEXT POST >>>>>>



.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A word about OUR works…


As noted in the post above, the "debate," the issue of the Reformation, the issue that so divides Western Christianity is not now and never has been what is true for Christians, for those justified (narrow), for those with the divine gift of life, faith and Holy Spirit (an issue theologically called "Sanctification" narrow). Everyone has always agreed that once justified, once given those Gifts, MANY truths come into play - including a life of humility, a life of repentance, a life of loving, a life of morality, a life of good works toward our neighbor, etc., etc, etc., etc. and that indeed the Holy Spirit we now HAVE directs and empower such (so that the CHRISTIAN response is synergistic and progressive) and indeed God rewards CHRISTIANS for this and indeed the lack of such may suggests the lack of justification or eventually may result in our wrecking our faith and thus terminating this gift of justification. No disagreement there, as the Catholic Church itself has so powerfully stressed for over 500 years. That's not the debate. The debate is about the application of the "FREE GIFT" of God - of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (narrow). The RCC called the Lutheran/Protestant view in the post above "heresy" - SO horrible it split Western Christianity over it.



On the one hand, Justification (narrow) is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!). On the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us, but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.



Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be conceived and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.


Messing this up undermines everything When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined. In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.


Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ! So Lutherans (and most Protestants) proclaim. It resulted in the third largest split in Christianity in 1500 years.



- Josiah




.
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Martin Luther and Justification....


Luther lived in a world where the common knowledge of Scripture (even among the clergy) was poor and when theological training of the clergy was minimal. Luther himself had pastors who had no clue as to the Gospel (or many other things, little knowledge of Catholicism). At the direction of his superiors, Luther became a professor of the Bible and gained a Doctorate in such (Becoming an official "Doctor of the Church" whose ministry was to instruct and correct the Catholic Church). He became a leading expert in biblical Hebrew and koine Greek - as well as Catholic doctrine, and a theology prof at the University of Wittenburg.


In addition to the (largely ignorant) bad preaching/teaching in Catholic parishes around Germany (at least) that Luther witnessed.... there were the Indulgence Sellers, trying to sqeeze more money out of poor Germans to support the LAVISH lifestyle of the Catholic princes and to fund the crusades the CC was directing. Now, Indulgences themselves had never been theologically approved and the practice itself unexamined by the Church - but it was working, generating a LOT of money and thus was being blindly and passionately supported (the expenses of the Catholic princes mandated this money, and more). But the sellers were shrouding all this selling with theology - theology the RCC has NEVER examined and certainly NEVER approved, theology that contradicted Catholic theology, contracted the Council of Orange, contradicted what Catholic universities typically taught, was horribly Pelagian (a condemned heresy in the RCC at the time). Luther wanted to put a light on that.... to have a theological, academic, university discussion of the theology these Sellers were using on these poor, innocent (and often very ignorant) Catholic laity.... this idea that giving money to the RCC is what justifies. So, his 95 Thesis were written in academic Latin and were a call for the professors and students of the university to discuss the theology in what the Sellers were preaching. Long story short, it all got out..... and since SO many felt passionately about this, well....


What is often missed is that at first, Luther was 100% SURE that the Catholic Church - it's bishops, cardinals and even the very corrupt Pope - would be grateful for his correction as a Doctor of the Church, and would be quick and eager to reign in the Sellers and to correct this very horrible theology. He was very polite, patient, courteous.... and confident. Boy was he wrong. For very complex reason (some theological, more political, even more economic) the RCC sided with the Pelagian heresy of the Indulgence Sellers. And - while it took 40 years - eventually would dogmatize that errant view in order to underpin its fundraising and its errant view of Christian motivation, and (perhaps most of all) to "justify" (albeit retroactively) all the things it had said to Luther and Lutherans.


For Luther, lifting high the Cross was critical. ANYTHING that undermined Jesus as THE SAVIOR, that undermined the Holy Spirit as the GIVER of life, was profoundly dangerous. The Chief Article of the Christian faith (he argued)... the Article of
Faith that more than any other makes Christainity distinctive and true.... the Article of Faith on which the entirety of Christianity stands.... is that Jesus (no other - including the one you see in the mirror), IS (fully, effectually) THE (one and only) SAVIOR (not Helper, not Possibility Maker). Yes, we all agree, WITH the DIVINE GIFTS of life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification narrow - MUCH comes into play but we all agree on that. What Luther was passionate to defend was the Gospel. He was excommunicated and this view anathematized.


500 years later, that Indulgence Sellers theology IMO still reigns in popular Catholicism. It's what I was taught in the RCC. There are liberal Catholics who insist that all this was just political and economic - and should be forgiven (even though the RCC CANNOT repent for it all). Other liberal Catholics who insist that actually - in spite of decades of very, very careful discussions with Luther and Lutheran "Fathers", in spite of Luther being SO very careful to explain what he meant and didn't mean so that it was impossible to misunderstand him, in spite of all this, Catholic scholarship among the Catholic bishops was SO bad that they just didn't understand and thus made a mistake, actually Catholicism has no major problem with what Luther said on Justification: we word things differently, we stress different things, but they are very compatible. And there are modern liberal Catholics who now even preach Lutheranism on this point, although perhaps using the term "initial grace" in lieu of "justification" in order to swerve around the anathemas of Trent but saying the same thing Luther did. I reject these modern, post Vatican II, liberal "spins." I think Catholicism simply chose to dogmatize the theology of the Indulgence Sellers and noted that Luther was right: the RCC did radically disagree with the view discribed in post 16 above. THAT view is heresy and must be anathematized and is SO bad that the RCC had to oversee the third largest split in Christianity in 1500 years.



Thank you.



- Josiah




.
 
Last edited:

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Staff Notice

I'm already seeing some harsh responses on this new thread. It is okay to attack another's persons beliefs, but not the person.
Questioning a person's logic or ability to be logical is insulting. Try to stick to attacking the belief and not the person. Try to be civil. No flaming allowed.
here is the rule

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
This is a Christian site and members are expected to act with respect toward others.
Flaming or personal attacks will not be tolerated.


This is going to be a much shorter thread and it will be closed if this cannot be followed. Just a warning

Carry on
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
:arms: I agree. I was just about to say that 1000 posts ought to be some sort of limit, not just the point at which the topic rolls over and starts anew. :yikes:
How many posts will it take for people to give up adding human works to their justification before the Almighty God? How long will it take for people to admit that there is nothing good within their being and that all goodness is found solely in Christ and Christ alone?
As long as people want to argue that it is "God...plus me" there will be a distinct disagreement. It can only be "God and God alone."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom