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MoreCoffee

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...
Back to you -

Arsenios

Pardon my wholesale reduction of your post to the last four words in it.

Who confuses Christmas with the gift of a bicycle? Who confuses a birthday with the cake? No one? That is right. The bicycle and the cake have their own existence apart from the day named Christmas and the day that is "your birthday". The gift and the occasion are different things. If that confuses then earthly life is going to be one long confusion.

PS: Remember this. It may be confusing too.
As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time [uncreated]; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother [created].
He is perfect God [uncreated]; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh [created].
He is equal to the Father in His divinity [uncreated], but inferior to the Father in His humanity [created].
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ [The mystery of the incarnation].
And He is one, not because His divinity [uncreated] was changed into flesh [created], but because His humanity was assumed unto God [the mystery].
 
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RichWh1

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Arsenios,

Thank you brother for sharing that video. I had heard that before on YouTube.

It explains the difference between Roman & Orthodox beliefs. They are both incorrect. They add the sacraments as a necessity for justification.




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MoreCoffee

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Arsenios,

Thank you brother for sharing that video. I had heard that before on YouTube.

It explains the difference between Roman & Orthodox beliefs. They are both incorrect. They add the sacraments as a necessity for justification.

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Except that the sacraments are not a necessity for justification.
 
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RichWh1

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Looking at these posts is very like looking at a critique of Christian theology made by those who do not understand it. If there's difficulty understanding the difference between what is given and the act of giving it how will mysteries like the incarnation and the Blessed Trinity fair?
Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.
This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.
He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.
He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.
And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.
He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.
As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.
He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved.

Amen.

MC

It isn't the 'theology ' we disagree on. (doctrine of the Triune God) It's the 'soteriology' (doctrine of salvation & justification)
 

MoreCoffee

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MC

It isn't the 'theology ' we disagree on. (doctrine of the Triune God) It's the 'soteriology' (doctrine of salvation & justification)

Sorry, I left myself open to this kind of pedantry. Theology is both a specific branch of theology and a general term for all of theology. If you really thought I was writing about the doctrine of God (the specific branch of theology that some call "theology proper") than I apologise for being unclear, did you really think that?
 

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Just remember MC there are different types of salvation yet only one justification to salvation.
 

MoreCoffee

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Just remember MC there are different types of salvation yet only one justification to salvation.

Did somebody say otherwise?
 

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Shall we give our bounties to rescue you? I ask in jest. Best to leave that video to YouTube. It is too erroneous to justify more time than was wasted watching it.

It was bad for me too... :)

Good to know who your friends are and aren't...

A.
 

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Arsenios

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Shall we give our bounties to rescue you? I ask in jest. Best to leave that video to YouTube. It is too erroneous to justify more time than was wasted watching it.

It illustrates the judgemental sneer and ridicule feature of so many of the proponents of this view...

I mean, if you show that video to a thousand non-believers, you will have the same number of them still being non-believers... Only more hardened in their non-belief as a consequence of watching it...

Arsenios
 

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Perhaps I am impatient, that is the only explanation I can give for re-displaying the following.

...
Back to you -

Arsenios

Pardon my wholesale reduction of your post to the last four words in it.

Who confuses Christmas with the gift of a bicycle? Who confuses a birthday with the cake? No one? That is right. The bicycle and the cake have their own existence apart from the day named Christmas and the day that is "your birthday". The gift and the occasion are different things. If that confuses then earthly life is going to be one long confusion.

PS: Remember this. It may be confusing too.
As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time [uncreated]; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother [created].
He is perfect God [uncreated]; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh [created].
He is equal to the Father in His divinity [uncreated], but inferior to the Father in His humanity [created].
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ [The mystery of the incarnation].
And He is one, not because His divinity [uncreated] was changed into flesh [created], but because His humanity was assumed unto God [the mystery].
 

Arsenios

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Pardon my wholesale reduction of your post to the last four words in it.

Who confuses Christmas with the gift of a bicycle? Who confuses a birthday with the cake? No one? That is right. The bicycle and the cake have their own existence apart from the day named Christmas and the day that is "your birthday". The gift and the occasion are different things. If that confuses then earthly life is going to be one long confusion.

PS: Remember this. It may be confusing too.
As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time [uncreated]; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother [created].
He is perfect God [uncreated]; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh [created].
He is equal to the Father in His divinity [uncreated], but inferior to the Father in His humanity [created].
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ [The mystery of the incarnation].
And He is one, not because His divinity [uncreated] was changed into flesh [created], but because His humanity was assumed unto God [the mystery].

We are not speaking of the Incarnation, but of Saving Grace...

Incarnationally, we are NOT baptized into Christ's flesh body, but into His Risen Body...
That Risen Body eats fish and honeycomb and walks through locked doors...
His incarnate body did NOT walk through such doors...

The article wrote about Grace being both created and Uncreated depending on our perspective...
It said the Grace that Saves is Uncreated and is God Himself.
It should have stopped there, but it did not...
It then went on to say that Saving Grace is created because it is received by a created person in time, and thus has a beginning and therefore cannot be created...

Have I missed something?

It clearly is saying that eternal Grace becomes temporal Grace when we receive it...

Orthodoxy teaches not that this Grace becomes temporal, but that man becomes eternal on receiving it...
And we also teach that the experience of eternity in God is VERY palpable...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios,
Thank you brother for sharing that video. I had heard that before on YouTube.

I winced listening to him sneer his way through the presentation... Tone of voice alone would account for thousands of the children of that church becoming Buddhists, I say!

Roman & Orthodox beliefs... add the sacraments as a necessity for justification.

So I sniffed a tad, and found another pastor attacking Hank... He said that the only issue is the question: "Are we Justified by faith alone, or do we have to add works? Is faith alone sufficient for our justification, or do we have to add something to God's Grace which is fully given by Faith?"

I would like to address this matter...

First:
We are not Justified by Faith but by God...
God's Grace is God Himself...
God is fully able to Justify anyone regardless of what that person does or does not do...

Second:
Paul did not write a Gospel...
Paul wrote Pastoral Epistles...
Those Epistles addressed specific needs in specific Churches...

The take-away from this is that IF you try to twist the Gospel out of Paul's Pastoral Epistles that are written for the benefit of local specific issues, where he is not writing with theological precision but for pastoral correction of specific flocks, you can get things all turned around easily, and the Bible warns of this...

Third:
We are not Justified BY faith, but THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples...
God's Justification comes AFTER God CALLS us to Repentance...
And it comes BEFORE God Glorifies those whom He has Justified...

NOBODY who thinks Justification comes before repentance has EVER addressed this issue, and it has to be addressed... So it becomes hard to discuss that which no one will discuss after repeatedly bring it up...

The sequence is:
God Calls us to Repentance...
He Justifies us by Baptism into Christ...
He Glorifies those perfected in the Faith whom He has Justified...

NOBODY will address this text...

Arsenios

ps - Justification is the entry of man through Baptism into the Body of Christ BY the Body of Christ...
NONE of the Prophets ever had this ENTRY into Christ...
They FULLY HAD the Holy Spirit saturating every pore of their being...
But the did NOT have the New Creation that man BECOMES when Baptized INTO Christ...

It is our ENTRY INTO Christ that IS God's Justification of us and it is done BY His Grace which IS God making man a PART of God...

A.
 
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MoreCoffee

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We are not speaking of the Incarnation, but of Saving Grace...

Incarnationally, we are NOT baptized into Christ's flesh body, but into His Risen Body...
That Risen Body eats fish and honeycomb and walks through locked doors...
His incarnate body did NOT walk through such doors...

The article wrote about Grace being both created and Uncreated depending on our perspective...
It said the Grace that Saves is Uncreated and is God Himself.
It should have stopped there, but it did not...
It then went on to say that Saving Grace is created because it is received by a created person in time, and thus has a beginning and therefore cannot be created...

Have I missed something?

It clearly is saying that eternal Grace becomes temporal Grace when we receive it...

Orthodoxy teaches not that this Grace becomes temporal, but that man becomes eternal on receiving it...
And we also teach that the experience of eternity in God is VERY palpable...

Arsenios

I may be mistaken but when you wrote "Grace" you're referring to God who is uncreated and when I referred you to the incarnation the same God is being discussed.
 

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Arsenios,

You have the order of events correct.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 (NASB)




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MoreCoffee

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I winced listening to him sneer his way through the presentation... Tone of voice alone would account for thousands of the children of that church becoming Buddhists, I say!



So I sniffed a tad, and found another pastor attacking Hank... He said that the only issue is the question: "Are we Justified by faith alone, or do we have to add works? Is faith alone sufficient for our justification, or do we have to add something to God's Grace which is fully given by Faith?"

I would like to address this matter...

First:
We are not Justified by Faith but by God...
God's Grace is God Himself...
God is fully able to Justify anyone regardless of what that person does or does not do...

Second:
Paul did not write a Gospel...
Paul wrote Pastoral Epistles...
Those Epistles addressed specific needs in specific Churches...

The take-away from this is that IF you try to twist the Gospel out of Paul's Pastoral Epistles that are written for the benefit of local specific issues, where he is not writing with theological precision but for pastoral correction of specific flocks, you can get things all turned around easily, and the Bible warns of this...

Third:
We are not Justified BY faith, but THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples...
God's Justification comes AFTER God CALLS us to Repentance...
And it comes BEFORE God Glorifies those whom He has Justified...

NOBODY who thinks Justification comes before repentance has EVER addressed this issue, and it has to be addressed... So it becomes hard to discuss that which no one will discuss after repeatedly bring it up...

The sequence is:
God Calls us to Repentance...
He Justifies us by Baptism into Christ...
He Glorifies those perfected in the Faith whom He has Justified...

NOBODY will address this text...

Arsenios

ps - Justification is the entry of man through Baptism into the Body of Christ BY the Body of Christ...
NONE of the Prophets ever had this ENTRY into Christ...
They FULLY HAD the Holy Spirit saturating every pore of their being...
But the did NOT have the New Creation that man BECOMES when Baptized INTO Christ...

It is our ENTRY INTO Christ that IS God's Justification of us and it is done BY His Grace which IS God making man a PART of God...

A.

I am beginning to wonder if capital first letters mean God or if they mean "I am giving emphasis to this" :p
 

Arsenios

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I may be mistaken but when you wrote "Grace" you're referring to God who is uncreated and when I referred you to the incarnation the same God is being discussed.

Of course!

I mean, I do not have a spare God up my sleeve!

And if YOU find one there, kill me quick!

We are not Baptized INTO the incarnate Christ, but into the Risen Christ...

As Christ said to Mary of 7 demons, "Do not be touching me, for I have not yes ascended to My Father..."

So the quoted catechism does say that Grace seen from the perspective of the one receiving it is created, because it is given in time, so it cannot be timeless...

Are you following my issue here?

Arsenios
 
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