Salvation

MennoSota said:

Mark 1 and Mark 16 are not about the same thing. As I have said, you get these mixed up and merged so that you confuse yourself.

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So do you think that the Gospel changed from Mark 1 to Mark 16??

Do we now have two Gospels?

Early Mark vs Late Mark?

Such divisions embrace treachery, my Brother...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

So do you think that the Gospel changed from Mark 1 to Mark 16??

Do we now have two Gospels?

Early Mark vs Late Mark?

Such divisions embrace treachery, my Brother...


Arsenios

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Mark 1 refers to the Mosaic Covenant. Mark 16 refers to the New Covenant. Do you recognize the difference in the covenants?

MennoSota said:

Mark 1 refers to the Mosaic Covenant.
Mark 16 refers to the New Covenant.
Do you recognize the difference in the covenants?

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Now you are making Christ Himself a Prophet of the Old Covenant???

C'mon, Menno!

Pick it up a notch!

Here is the Gospel's very words:

Matt. 4:17
From that time
Jesus began to preach,
and to say,
"Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

I mean, are you seriously arguing that Christ's words are only for the OT Jews, and that we must look to, say, Paul alone to know what is the New Covenant???


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Now you are making Christ Himself a Prophet of the Old Covenant???

C'mon, Menno!

Pick it up a notch!

Here is the Gospel's very words:

Matt. 4:17
From that time
Jesus began to preach,
and to say,
"Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

I mean, are you seriously arguing that Christ's words are only for the OT Jews, and that we must look to, say, Paul alone to know what is the New Covenant???


Arsenios

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Arsenios, you refuse to answer. Is there a difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant? How you answer will explain your interpretation of Mark 1, Matt 4 and Mark 16.
It seems you make no differentiation between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant, which explains how you misinterpret these passages.

MoreCoffee said:

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. ... Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." ... Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1. The beginning] St Mark commences his Gospel suddenly and concisely. He does not begin with a genealogy of our Lord, like St Matthew, or with the history of the Infancy, as St Luke, or with the doctrine of the Eternal Word, as St John. He desires to portray Christ in the fullness of His living energy. See Introduction, pp. 16, 17.
of Jesus Christ] The Gospel of Jesus Christ denotes the Glad Tidings concerning Jesus Christ = the Messiah, the anointed Prophet, Priest, and King. For the meaning of the name Jesus see Mat 1:21.
the Son of God] Contrast this with St Mat 1:1, “the Son of David, the Son of Abraham.” The first Evangelist writes for Jews, the second for Gentiles.

The time, i. e. the great fore-ordained and predicted time of the Messiah.
the kingdom of God] or as it is called in St Matthew the Kingdom of the Heavens (comp. Dan 2:44; Dan 7:13-14; Dan 7:27), denotes here the Kingdom of grace, the visible Church, of which our Lord described (a) in the parable of “the Mustard Seed” (Mat 13:31-32), its slight and despised beginning; (b) in that of “the Hidden Leaven” and the “Seed growing secretly,” its hidden and mysterious working (Mat 13:33; Mar 4:26-29); (c) and again in the first two Parables its final and assured triumph in spite of the obstacles set forth in the Parable of “the Tares” (Mat 13:24-30).
believe] Rather believe in, repose your faith on, the Gospel.

And he said unto them] St John informs us that on this occasion the Risen Saviour breathed on the Apostles, and gave them a foretaste of the bestowal of the Holy Ghost, with power to remit sin and retain sin. St Mark tells us of very important words, which He went on to utter, anticipating the final charge recorded by St Matthew (Mat 28:16-20).
Go ye into all the world] Or, as it is expressed in St Matthew’s Gospel, “make disciples of all nations” (Mat 28:19), and comp. Luk 24:47; Act 1:8. Contrast these injunctions with those to the Twelve during His earthly ministry, Mat 10:5-6, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
every creature] i. e. to the whole creation, the whole world of men, not Jews only or Samaritans, but Gentiles of all nations. Comp. Rom 8:21-22.
He that believeth and is baptised] Not faith only, but baptism also is required by the Lord. Compare the words of Philip the deacon to the Ethiopian eunuch, Act 8:37.
he that believeth not] He addeth not and is baptised here. This would have been superfluous. He who refuses to believe will refuse to be baptised.
shall be damned] See note above, ch. Mar 12:40. He who wilfully rejects the Gospel message, when duly offered him, shall have no share in its saving mercies, but shall be left to the condemnation due to him for his sins.

Above are the verses and then some comments from Cambridge university press

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Understanding the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant in these passages is important. Do you make any differentiation between the two covenants, MC? This is vitally important if we are going to discuss salvation.

MennoSota said:

Arsenios, you refuse to answer.

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So you say...

Is there a difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?

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The Old Covenant is that of the Mosaic Law...

The New Covenant is of the Body and Blood of Christ...

How you answer will explain your interpretation of Mark 1,

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Mark 1??? The text tells you that it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

It's a no-brainer, Menno...

It seems you make no differentiation between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant,
which explains how you misinterpret these passages.

Click to expand...

Well, I answered how I differentiate the two...

Back at ya!

Arsenios

MoreCoffee said:

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. ... Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." ... Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

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These quotations establish the context for this entire Gospel account...

It is CLEARLY NOT about the Old Covenant of the Law of Moses...

To SAY that it IS about the Old Covenant is to contradict the Scripture in plain view...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

So you say...



The Old Covenant is that of the Mosaic Law...

The New Covenant is of the Body and Blood of Christ...



Mark 1??? The text tells you that it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

It's a no-brainer, Menno...



Well, I answered how I differentiate the two...

Back at ya!

Arsenios

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You didn't answer at all. What I take from this is that you cannot fathom how the kingdom in Mark 1 refers to the kingdom under the Mosaic Covenant, while Mark 16 is referring to the atoning work of Jesus in establishing the New Covenant.

MoreCoffee said:

I do differentiate between the old covenant and the new covenant.

The Gospel according to saint Mark is about Jesus Christ and the gospel that Jesus brought to light.

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You deny that the Kingdom Jesus is referring to in Mark 1 is the physical Kingdom of Israel, which would have been established had the nation repented?
After Jesus died and rose again, the New Covenant was then established, which ushered in a change. Israel is now the Israel of the promise, not the Israel of the Mosaic Covenant.
You do not make this distinction, which explains why you add works salvation and cannot hold to salvation by grace alone.

MoreCoffee said:

I do deny it. I deny that the gospel of the kingdom is about Israel in 30 AD. "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." The kingdom of which Jesus spoke is the kingdom of God. Holy scripture explains the kingdom of God in these words:

Mark 1:15
and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Mark 4:11
And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

Mark 4:26
And he said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground.

Mark 4:30
And he said, "With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it?

Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:15
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Mark 10:23
And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"

Mark 10:24
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God!

Mark 10:25
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 12:34
And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Mark 14:25
Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Mark 15:43
Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
​

Jesus said that the cup he gave to the apostles to drink from at the Last supper was the new covenant in his blood. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many." Mark 14:24

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The Kingdom of Israel is not fulfilled. The people never repent. This is what we see in the gospels. God then establishes the New Covenant at the cross by giving the Kingdom to the children of the promise...the Israel of God. Jesus even tells the Jews that he will destroy the city of Jerusalem and end his connection to the nation Israel while those the Father has given him will be established as the true Kingdom of God.
Thus we see the major difference in our theology so that we cannot find agreement. You apply the Kingdom of the Law to the Kingdom of the New Covenant and thus you reject grace in the process.

MennoSota said:

The Kingdom Jesus is referring to in Mark 1
is the physical Kingdom of Israel,
which would have been established
had the nation repented...

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It was not that Kingdom to which Christ was referring ANYWHERE in Mark...

Thank-you for saying that it was, because I now understand, thanks to you, the lens of your understanding...

I tell ya, Menno, I have been struggling for some years now trying to understand people who think as you do...

I have been dumbfounded at their hard-headedness and hard-heartedness...

And none of it made any sense - I was on a forum some of them had created...

Not one of them made it as clear as you have done here...

So my Brother, please receive my heartfelt thanks to you...

Here is my answer to you:

Christ NEVER refered to His Kingdom as a physical kingdom on earth...

He was referring to yhe Kingdom of Heaven...

Christians are strangers to this fallen earth...

The JEWS thought that this was what He was referring to...

That He was coming to establish an earthly Kingdom...

The JEWS were wrong, my Brother, and Christ PROVED them wrong
by His Holy Death on the Blessed Wood of the Tree of the Cross...

And your understanding is just as wrong as is that of the Jews...

Had the Nation of the Jews believed in Christ, there still would have been Christianity on this earth through the Nation of Israel in persecutions - There was NEVER to be some "believing Israel" RULING the earth... Had the nation of Israel believed in Christ, then Israel would have joined Herself with those She ended up persecuting, the Christians... And what blessedness that would have been! But Christianity is the Faith of Christ Persecuted, not Christ RULING OVER the earth...

Look, even when Peter cut off with his sword the ear of the attendant in the arresting party of Christ in the Garden, Christ CORRECTED him, remember? AND He healed the ear then and there, teaching him that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, but is FOR this world...

Christ's RULE, His PHYSICAL rule over the earth, will not come until His Second Coming, at the Dread and Last Judgement... Until that time, we are, by the actions we take as we live our lives here on earth, establishing our eternal futures - For Life if we embrace the Good or for destruction if we embrace evil... And this is not so God will know who is good and who is not, but it is so that WE will know, by the lives we chose in our living them, that we belong in the eternal future God gives to us...

After Jesus died and rose again, the New Covenant was then established,
which ushered in a change.
Israel is now the Israel of the promise, not the Israel of the Mosaic Covenant.

Click to expand...

Christ established the new covenant in HIS Flesh and in HIS Blood...
He established it by His Life, by His Death, and by His Resurrection...

"Drink of this all of you...
This is My Blood of the New Covenant...
Which is shed for many...
For the forgiveness of sins..."

He GAVE his Flesh and He GAVE His Blood...
He gave this BEFORE He ASCENDED the Cross...
Because He had ALREADY overcome the World...

"Take...
Eat...
This IS My Body...
Which is broken for you..."

This when His Body has NOT YET been broken...

The New Covenant was established PRIOR to His physical Death and Resurrection...

And it ANTICIPATED that Death and Resurrection...

Christ KNEW and had ALWAYS KNOWN...

He KNEW in Mark 1 and in every Blessed Page of every Gospel in the Bible...

You do not make this distinction,
which explains why you add works salvation
and cannot hold to salvation by grace alone.

Click to expand...

Salvation is by God, and indeed by His Grace Alone...
It is THROUGH the Faith of Christ...
THAT Faith is the Great WORK of Repentance from sin...
And the OVERCOMING of the demonic rulership of this fallen world...

"I have overcome the world..."

Arsenios

MennoSota said:

The Kingdom of Israel is not fulfilled. The people never repent. This is what we see in the gospels. God then establishes the New Covenant at the cross by giving the Kingdom to the children of the promise...the Israel of God. Jesus even tells the Jews that he will destroy the city of Jerusalem and end his connection to the nation Israel while those the Father has given him will be established as the true Kingdom of God.
Thus we see the major difference in our theology so that we cannot find agreement. You apply the Kingdom of the Law to the Kingdom of the New Covenant and thus you reject grace in the process.

Click to expand...

The Cross was in view from before the beginning of time...

The Theocracy of Israel was never in view...

To the consternation of the Jews...

That Theocracy is Old Testament Covenant...

"God GAVE this LAND to ME..."

The New Jerusalem is the rich earth of the Heart softened by tears of repentance...

Therein is the Home of the Pure in Heart who see God...


Arsenios

I'm glad to clear up your misconception. We will not agree.

Arsenios said:

It was not that Kingdom to which Christ was referring ANYWHERE in Mark...

Thank-you for saying that it was, because I now understand, thanks to you, the lens of your understanding...

I tell ya, Menno, I have been struggling for some years now trying to understand people who think as you do...

I have been dumbfounded at their hard-headedness and hard-heartedness...

And none of it made any sense - I was on a forum some of them had created...

Not one of them made it as clear as you have done here...

So my Brother, please receive my heartfelt thanks to you...

Here is my answer to you:

Christ NEVER refered to His Kingdom as a physical kingdom on earth...

He was referring to yhe Kingdom of Heaven...

Christians are strangers to this fallen earth...

The JEWS thought that this was what He was referring to...

That He was coming to establish an earthly Kingdom...

The JEWS were wrong, my Brother, and Christ PROVED them wrong
by His Holy Death on the Blessed Wood of the Tree of the Cross...

And your understanding is just as wrong as is that of the Jews...

Had the Nation of the Jews believed in Christ, there still would have been Christianity on this earth through the Nation of Israel in persecutions - There was NEVER to be some "believing Israel" RULING the earth... Had the nation of Israel believed in Christ, then Israel would have joined Herself with those She ended up persecuting, the Christians... And what blessedness that would have been! But Christianity is the Faith of Christ Persecuted, not Christ RULING OVER the earth...

Look, even when Peter cut off with his sword the ear of the attendant in the arresting party of Christ in the Garden, Christ CORRECTED him, remember? AND He healed the ear then and there, teaching him that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, but is FOR this world...

Christ's RULE, His PHYSICAL rule over the earth, will not come until His Second Coming, at the Dread and Last Judgement... Until that time, we are, by the actions we take as we live our lives here on earth, establishing our eternal futures - For Life if we embrace the Good or for destruction if we embrace evil... And this is not so God will know who is good and who is not, but it is so that WE will know, by the lives we chose in our living them, that we belong in the eternal future God gives to us...



Christ established the new covenant in HIS Flesh and in HIS Blood...
He established it by His Life, by His Death, and by His Resurrection...

"Drink of this all of you...
This is My Blood of the New Covenant...
Which is shed for many...
For the forgiveness of sins..."

He GAVE his Flesh and He GAVE His Blood...
He gave this BEFORE He ASCENDED the Cross...
Because He had ALREADY overcome the World...

"Take...
Eat...
This IS My Body...
Which is broken for you..."

This when His Body has NOT YET been broken...

The New Covenant was established PRIOR to His physical Death and Resurrection...

And it ANTICIPATED that Death and Resurrection...

Christ KNEW and had ALWAYS KNOWN...

He KNEW in Mark 1 and in every Blessed Page of every Gospel in the Bible...



Salvation is by God, and indeed by His Grace Alone...
It is THROUGH the Faith of Christ...
THAT Faith is the Great WORK of Repentance from sin...
And the OVERCOMING of the demonic rulership of this fallen world...

"I have overcome the world..."

Arsenios

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The nation of Israel was promised a Messiah for which they waited. When John the Baptist preceded Jesus, he knew only the establishment and restoration of the earthly Kingdom of Israel, of which he declared the coming of Messiah. We know this because when John was in prison he sent a messenger to Jesus to ask if Jesus was the Messiah. Even John was clueless about the promise to the Israel of God, which encompasses both Jew and Gentile. John's call for repentance was to establish an earthly Kingdom.
Since Jesus is Messiah, his message on earth (before the crucifixion and resurrection) was a repentance of Israel to establish a physical Kingdom of Israel. When Israel rejected Messiah, Jesus establishment of the promised New Covenant began.
We see then, two different calls in the gospel. The first was for physical Israel. The second is for all persons of the promise. Those who have ears to hear will believe as God awakens them and gives faith to exercise their belief.
We cannot agree if you cannot accept the distinction presented in scripture.

psalms 91 said:

Reconcile Israel being the heart with Revelation where it speaks of Jerusalem and Israel and not of the heart but of a real battle taking place that Christ returns and stops

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The elect (the Israel of God) will be guided to Jerusalem, by God, where the saints will persevere until Jesus rescues them.