Salvation

MoreCoffee · Sep 3, 2018

Arsenios said:
I did not write those words to flame, but to invite Menno to turn from flaming...

My concern is for him, and MC will not reply, being the one flamed...

Somebody needs to care about Menno...

His attacks on MC are not good for him...

I happen to care...

And I pray for him...

Will you please pray for him with me?

And will you pray for me?

I believe Menno prays for me as well...

Arsenios

I did reply brother Arsenios, in quite words that I hope can calm tempestuous fingers.

Arsenios · Sep 3, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I did reply brother Arsenios,
in quiet words
that I hope can calm tempestuous fingers.

Indeed you did...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Sep 3, 2018

Arsenios said:
Indeed you did...

Arsenios

So we kneel and pray, God is gracious to all who come. That's the whole point of this thread. It is about salvation and salvation is the grace of God given to sinners who did deserve his kindness and the good things he gave to them yet he is kind and he does give.

Arsenios · Sep 4, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
So we kneel and pray,

I sure hope so...

God is gracious to all who come.

No question...

That's the whole point of this thread.

It is sure the title!

It is about salvation

Indeed...

And salvation is the grace of God

Well, we part on this matter -

It is most assuredly BY the Grace of God...
But it is the Spiritual (and ontological) Union of God and man in this life...
God is gracious unto all...
But He is not intimate with all...
The Marriage of the Lamb is the Mystery of Salvation...

Remember the OT Saint who God told to marry the prostitute?
Remember how that all worked out?

given to sinners

Without question... He was even gracious to Pilate...

who did [not??] deserve his kindness and the good things he gave to them yet he is kind and he does give.

I imagine you did a typo above as I filled in for you...

Please correct me if I am wrong...

We Orthodox avoid even saying that creation DESERVES to be created...
Let alone that we become unified with God the Creator...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

In this life, we "seek the Face of the God of Jacob"... And this means Christ...

For we are to become by God's Grace what God became in the flesh by Nature...

God became man in order that fallen man should become Divinized by God...

So first, man must turn from evil and seek the Good...

God completes this effort in Baptism INTO Christ...

Then man struggles as a new-born in Christ to keep the purity he received but did not himself cause...

This keeping of the purity of Baptism is unto the healing of body and soul...

It is the purpose of one's lifetime, for the forces of evil are unrelenting...

And in this running of the race set out before us, we learn to overcome our demonic adversaries...

And this means suffering their assaults in Love and Joy...

And in this, God is the one who brings us healing...

Maturity (or perfecting) in the Faith is God's Gift...

Some, in that Gift, then need, as Paul did, a "thorn in the flesh"...

A constant reminder of our fallen nature...

In which even Christ after three days in the tomb...

Told Mary the Magdalene "Do not be touching me, for I have not (yet) Ascended to My Father."

These perfected ones are the Saints...

Who have paid the cost of discipleship...

And they do by Grace what Christ did by Nature...

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that is believing unto Me,
the works which I am doing
shall he also be doing;
and greater works than these
shall he be doing;
because I am going
unto my Father.

This is the Great Calling of the Saints...
Here and now and always...
In this life...

And the rest of us simply struggle along as best we can...

Arsenios

MoreCoffee · Sep 5, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
So we kneel and pray, God is gracious to all who come. That's the whole point of this thread. It is about salvation and salvation is the grace of God given to sinners who didn't deserve his kindness and the good things he gave to them yet he is kind and he does give.

I mean "didn't" oops

Typos are way too easy to make.

Shall I don sackcloth and ashes?

MoreCoffee · Sep 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
...
Well, we part on this matter -

It is most assuredly BY the Grace of God...
But it is the Spiritual (and ontological) Union of God and man in this life...
God is gracious unto all...
But He is not intimate with all...
The Marriage of the Lamb is the Mystery of Salvation...

Remember the OT Saint who God told to marry the prostitute?
Remember how that all worked out?
...

I see your point but I didn't say nor did I imply that salvation is the ONLY grace of God. Many graces are given and only saving grace can bring salvation.

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
I see your point but I didn't say nor did I imply that salvation is the ONLY grace of God. Many graces are given and only saving grace can bring salvation.

The Protestant formulaic is often "Saving Grace", to differentiate it from other Graces...

Orthodoxy understands this Grace to be Union with God...

Protestants who have experienced it, and there are some, all agree with me...

Those more doctrinal in a Biblical approach, tend to wonder what I am talking about...

The problem for Protestants who have encountered God as God personally is that they normally have not been prepared for the encounter, and while they do see it as life-transforming, and it is, they do not experience it from the preparation which the discipling of the Church gives, and so they consider it as an affirmation of their doctrines...

I did not suffer such a notion, because I was a "convert" from a very non-Christian and outwardly profligate life, and my encounter with God could not be "credited" to that life...

This Union with God is Initiated by God by direct encounter first hand... Such an encounter is Theosis... St. Thomas Aquinas had such an encounter late in his life, and entered recusal from the world... Saying "All I have written is straw..." This is what the discipling of the Church prepares one for - The Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...

That preparation is arduous...

Becoming a way of life...

Arsenios

MennoSota · Sep 5, 2018

MoreCoffee said:
So we kneel and pray, God is gracious to
all who come.
That's the whole point of this thread. It is about salvation and salvation is the grace of God given to sinners who did deserve his kindness and the good things he gave to them yet he is kind and he does give.

No one comes of their own free will, which is the difference between us. You place the effort on humans, which removes grace as a possibility, while I place the effort on God, which makes it entirely by grace.

MennoSota · Sep 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
The Protestant formulaic is often "Saving Grace", to differentiate it from other Graces...

Orthodoxy understands this Grace to be Union with God...

Protestants who have experienced it, and there are some, all agree with me...

Those more doctrinal in a Biblical approach, tend to wonder what I am talking about...

The problem for Protestants who have encountered God as God personally is that they normally have not been prepared for the encounter, and while they do see it as life-transforming, and it is, they do not experience it from the preparation which the discipling of the Church gives, and so they consider it as an affirmation of their doctrines...

I did not suffer such a notion, because I was a "convert" from a very non-Christian and outwardly profligate life, and my encounter with God could not be "credited" to that life...

This Union with God is Initiated by God by direct encounter first hand... Such an encounter is Theosis... St. Thomas Aquinas had such an encounter late in his life, and entered recusal from the world... Saying "All I have written is straw..." This is what the discipling of the Church prepares one for - The Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...

That preparation is arduous...

Becoming a way of life...

Arsenios

You make this a mystical experience rather than a faith experience, Arsenios.
The walk with God is removed of burden by Jesus whose yoke is easy. You make it arduous by adding works upon works like the Pharisees added burdens to the Jews.

TurtleHare · Sep 5, 2018

By faith Noah, by faith Abraham, the walk with God is on account of Jesus and those two words by faith carry more weight than what happened after those words otherwise it wouldn't have mattered to include them in the script.

MoreCoffee · Sep 5, 2018

TurtleHare said:
By faith Noah, by faith Abraham, the walk with God is on account of Jesus and those two words by faith carry more weight than what happened after those words otherwise it wouldn't have mattered to include them in the script.

What happened afterwards, after the 'by faith' words, is what made 'faith'.

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
You make this a mystical experience rather than a faith experience, Arsenios.

Well, I do like to say that I am a very faithless person, having knowledge... But when it comes down to it, I really do not proceed according to what is seen, but according to what is not seen... And that is the quintessential definition of faith...

And yes, the Ancient Faith of Christ is mystical, for as Paul notes, we hold the Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience...

If you wish to see how mystical it is, read "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Lossky...

The Book of Revelation is an entirely mystical work...

The walk with God is removed of burden by Jesus whose yoke is easy.

The word 'easy' is actually apt or fitting...

You make it arduous by adding works upon works like the Pharisees added burdens to the Jews.

The running of the race, persevering to the end, is indeed an arduous endeavor requiring virtue and courage... It is not for easy-believer sissies who name it and by naming think they claim it... The cost of discipleship is your life, which you must understand as having no value whatsoever, so that by this giving of nothing of value, you through that giving, attain the Kingdom of Heaven, even God Himself, which is everything... It is the ultimate Jewish deal, I say! Get everything for nothing... Yet it is joyful and labor and prayer intensive, with sleep and calorie deprivation, following Christ in the taking up of one's own cross...

And it is ALL about your own will... Remove your will from Salvation, rather than struggle to conform it to God's will, and you will not find Salvation... This Faith is a struggle to overcome self in embracing God... it is the hardest and most rewarding and most arduous and most worthwhile thing you will ever do... All else pales in comparison...

And you cannot earn what God alone can give...

But the Heavens rejoice with God more over the conversion of one sinner to repentance that all the deeds of a righteous man... And God loves the righteous ones...

It was the will of Adam that fell...
It is the will of man that must stand in Christ...
And in Christ man WILL stand...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

TurtleHare said:
By faith Noah, by faith Abraham, the walk with God is on account of Jesus and those two words by faith carry more weight than what happened after those words otherwise it wouldn't have mattered to include them in the script.

By Faith means acting according to what cannot be seen...

eg Obedience to God...

Arsenios

MennoSota · Sep 5, 2018

Arsenios said:
Well, I do like to say that I am a very faithless person, having knowledge... But when it comes down to it, I really do not proceed according to what is seen, but according to what is not seen... And that is the quintessential definition of faith...

And yes, the Ancient Faith of Christ is mystical, for as Paul notes, we hold the Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience...

If you wish to see how mystical it is, read "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Lossky...

The Book of Revelation is an entirely mystical work...

The word 'easy' is actually apt or fitting...

The running of the race, persevering to the end, is indeed an arduous endeavor requiring virtue and courage... It is not for easy-believer sissies who name it and by naming think they claim it... The cost of discipleship is your life, which you must understand as having no value whatsoever, so that by this giving of nothing of value, you through that giving, attain the Kingdom of Heaven, even God Himself, which is everything... It is the ultimate Jewish deal, I say! Get everything for nothing... Yet it is joyful and labor and prayer intensive, with sleep and calorie deprivation, following Christ in the taking up of one's own cross...

And it is ALL about your own will... Remove your will from Salvation, rather than struggle to conform it to God's will, and you will not find Salvation... This Faith is a struggle to overcome self in embracing God... it is the hardest and most rewarding and most arduous and most worthwhile thing you will ever do... All else pales in comparison...

And you cannot earn what God alone can give...

But the Heavens rejoice with God more over the conversion of one sinner to repentance that all the deeds of a righteous man... And God loves the righteous ones...

It was the will of Adam that fell...
It is the will of man that must stand in Christ...
And in Christ man WILL stand...

Arsenios

Your response exemplifies your gift for pretzeling grace into a series of works.

MoreCoffee · Sep 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Your response exemplifies your gift for pretzeling grace into a series of works.

The grace is in the works. Grace does great things but when it ceases to work it ceases to exist.

Albion · Sep 5, 2018

?? I never have thought of Grace as failing.

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

MennoSota said:
Your response exemplifies your gift for pretzeling grace into a series of works.

You have to desire Salvaiton...
Your works constitute the sincerity of your asking God for it...
You cannot just say something like:
"Well, OK God, if you are passing it out, I guess I will take what you are giving me for free..."

You have to say: "I will put ALL else aside for the sake of following Christ, that He might give me Union with Him..."
And then you must do so, forsaking the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...
It is a decision only you can make in this fallen life...
God will reward whatever you decide...
He was even kind to Pilate...
And God is Faithful...
He does not disappoint...

It is the Pearl of Great Price...

Arsenios

Arsenios · Sep 5, 2018

Albion said:
?? I never have thought of Grace as failing.

Great observation!

A.

MennoSota · Sep 6, 2018

Arsenios said:
You have to desire Salvaiton...
Your works constitute the sincerity of your asking God for it...
You cannot just say something like:
"Well, OK God, if you are passing it out, I guess I will take what you are giving me for free..."

You have to say: "I will put ALL else aside for the sake of following Christ, that He might give me Union with Him..."
And then you must do so, forsaking the world for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...
It is a decision only you can make in this fallen life...
God will reward whatever you decide...
He was even kind to Pilate...
And God is Faithful...
He does not disappoint...

It is the Pearl of Great Price...

Arsenios

Laws and Rules coming from you and no grace. This is why I point you at the letter to the Galatians and compare you with the Judaisers.

God will accomplish His good will in us. He will set us apart for His glory. Trust Him.

Salvation

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