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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Salvation

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      I don't see how to avoid making this a replay of justification, since it's essentially the same topic.
      Justification, that is being made righteous, is not salivation. It's a part of God's grace that saves but other parts exist too, such as the life of Christ infused into the faithful, the love that God infuses into the soul of the just, and a number of other graces given to God's people.


      I agree with the OP. The term is used in different ways. Both within Scripture and even more in theology.

      Jesus seems to use it in 2 ways
      * being saved in the end
      * changing from someone outside the Kingdom to inside; repentance

      Are we actually justified by faith? Yes, I think so. But you need to understand what faith is. According to the huge article in TDNT it is really the whole attitude of humans in response to God. It thus combines faith, faithfulness, trust, and even obedience. However in the NT it tends to mean primarily trust. I think that's the sense in which Jesus uses it. But Jesus doesn't say we are justified by faith. Paul does.

      For Paul there's a specific context. He is, as TDNT says, using it as one of two principles of salvation (the other being Law). For him the question is whether we rely on God for salvation or on our own obedience to the Law. Clearly our salvation comes from God, not anything we do. I don't think anyone disputes that. But he also teaches that we'll be judged by our actions -- or perhaps better, our lives -- although I think we have to be very careful about that to avoid a checklist mentality or legalism. So just because salvation is from God, independent of our own worthiness, doesn't remove the fact that we are held responsible for how we respond.

      Thus the common position that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement in accordance with works. I think the same is true of Jesus.

      But faith in this context is not "I think that's true."
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Using the terminology, etc. of your post, believing is greater than doing. But really, the question is flawed because it presumes that no doing on your behalf or my behalf has been done.
      So is "Saving Faith" the faith that is the doing of the Gospel?
      If demons believing the Gospel is not salvation,
      the only thing that seems to be missing is the doing of the Gospel...

      The truth is that Christ did the doing.
      OK - So what is Paul talking about here?

      Col 1:24
      Who is now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
      and am filling up that which is lacking
      of the afflictions of Christ

      in my flesh
      for His Body's sake,
      which is the Church:


      This is at the heart of the Gospel. If we had been able to do sufficiently, it would not have been necessary for us to have a Savior. Obviously, we were sent a Savior in order to do what we could not do by ourselves.
      So what is Paul doing in his own flesh above if it is Christ that did ALL the doing?

      Therefore, insisting that we are to equal or supplement his accomplishment
      misses one of the most basic truths of the Gospel.
      No one has said this...

      We are saying that man has a Christ-assigned obedience that leads to his Salvation by God...

      Arsenios

    3. #23
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      Is Salvation Life Eternal?

      Joh_17:2-3
      As thou hast given Him Power over all flesh,
      that He should give eternal life
      to as many as thou hast given him.


      And if it is, then we have the definition:

      And this is Life Eternal,
      that they might Know Thee
      the only true God,
      and
      Jesus Christ,
      Whom Thou hast sent.


      And then the question becomes "What does it mean to KNOW the One True God?"

      For this word KNOW is the word used for conjugal relations in marriage...

      And the Marriage of the Lamb IS the Mystery of Salvation IN Christ...

      Arsenios

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    5. #24
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      Salvation

      For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
      2 Timothy 2:10-13

      Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
      Hebrews 5:8-10

      According to these verses salvation is eternal.

      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      "Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

    6. #25
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      Notice to those who obey Him
      Isaiah 40:31

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    8. #26
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      I can understand the very human desire for reassurance and for certainty about the future, it is after all what drives people to seek foretelling of events from astrologers and tarot cards and from mediums and fortune tellers so it is no surprise to find Christians seeking to be reassured about their personal future and hence being very keen to find theological justifications for thinking that they know that they are saved, irrevocably and completely and certainly saved with no chance of error and no possibility of loss. But wishing for certainty does not make certainty real.

      Romans 8: 18 I consider, that the suffering of our present life cannot be compared with the glory that will be revealed, and given to us. 19 All creation is eagerly expecting the birth, in glory, of the children of God. 20 For, if now, the created world was unable to attain its purpose, this did not come from itself, but from the one who subjected it. But it is not without hope; 21 for even the created world, will be freed from this fate of death, and share the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know, that the whole creation groans and suffers the pangs of birth. 23 Not creation alone, but even ourselves; although the Spirit was given to us, as a foretaste of what we are to receive, we groan in our innermost being, eagerly awaiting the day, when God will give us full rights, and rescue our bodies as well. 24 In hope, we already have salvation. But, if we saw what we hoped for, there would no longer be hope: how can you hope for what is already seen? 25 So, we hope for what we do not see, and we will receive it, through patient hope. 26 Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes for us, without words, as if with groans. 27 And he, who sees inner secrets, knows the desires of the Spirit, for he asks for the holy ones, what is pleasing to God.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 06-17-2018 at 06:35 AM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    9. #27
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      For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
      2 Timothy 2:10-13

      Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
      Hebrews 5:8-10

      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      According to these verses salvation is eternal.
      Then Salvation IS Life Eternal:

      This is Life Eternal,
      that they might Know Thee
      the only true God,
      and
      Jesus Christ,
      Whom Thou hast sent.


      So IF... Salvation is Eternal Life here and now...
      THEN... What does that look like?

      This is why the Gospels speak of the Kingdom of Heaven...
      And the Pastoral Epistles address issues of repenting...

      "To KNOW Thee, the One True God..."
      Is INFINITELY more personal than
      "Adam KNEW Eve..."

      One objection I ran into with this accounting was:
      "Well then, Arsenios,
      IF one can LOSE Salvation...
      IF one can LOSE Eternal Life...
      then HOW can it POSSIBLY be ETERNAL?"


      I thought it was a great question...

      Anyone have an answer?

      Arsenios

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    11. #28
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      Although He was a Son,
      He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
      And having been made perfect,
      He became to all those who obey Him
      the source of eternal salvation,
      being designated by God as a high priest
      according to the order of Melchizedek.

      Hebrews 5:8-10

      Quote Originally Posted by RichWh1 View Post
      According to these verses salvation is eternal.
      Christ learned obedience...
      Was then made perfect...
      Through suffering...
      Then was made the source of Salvation...
      To those obeying Him...

      Obedience by Christ in the flesh...
      Obedience by us following Christ...

      Obedience to the Gospel would seem to be our Treasury of Salvation...
      Not Authority, but Obedience...

      Following Christ is a good thing...

      Arsenios

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    13. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      ...
      One objection I ran into with this accounting was:
      "Well then, Arsenios,
      IF one can LOSE Salvation...
      IF one can LOSE Eternal Life...
      then HOW can it POSSIBLY be ETERNAL?"


      I thought it was a great question...

      Anyone have an answer?

      Arsenios
      Give this passage some thought and I am confident that the answer will present itself if patience is exercised.

      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God; 2 he was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him nothing came to be. Whatever has come to be, 4 found life in him; life, which for human beings, was also light, 5 light that shines in darkness, light that darkness could not overcome.

      ...

      Hints for the impatient
      • I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
      • I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
      • through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
      • I am the bread of life
      • When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
      • I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
      • For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    15. #30
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      "Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

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