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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Salvation

    1. #11
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Believing because of faith is different than the believing that the demons did because there was no saving faith given for the demons...only to humans through Christ. So is believing enough? Absolutely. Is repentance something God does within us? Absolutely, because it includes faith to turn us to Him.
      From what I understand the word believe in the Bible is to put your whole faith and trust in. It isn't the same as an intellectual belief.

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    3. #12
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      Seems we're way off topic but.... to add my half cent....

      Biblically, as I understand it, "pistos" CAN mean to hold to something true and correct but it also can mean to trust, to actively rely upon. IMO, context determines the difference.

      The Devil probably knows a LOT more God than all of us here at CH combined. But does He trust/rely upon Christ as His Savior? IMO, one could have an IQ of 200, have 5 Ph.D.'s, 3 Seminary degrees, and have memorized every word of the Bible from Genesis - Revelation, and not have active trust/reliance in Christ. I know a LOT of people who have no clue how planes fly (or THINK they do but they don't, lol). But they stuff themselves into planes every day - trusting in flight, relying on THIS plane and THIS crew and THIS course. KNOWING and RELYING just aren't the same thing.... and one can exist at the exclusion of the other.

      In Lutheran theology at least, we do make a distinction between cognative affirmation and active reliance. And I think this is appropriate. Personally, I see this in Scripture, too. Lutherans hold that Justification is via Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, and that last aspect, "fide" is the reliance aspect. We hold that a baby can have the gift of trusting (even though there may be very little to no understanding of that) whereas the dude with 3 Seminary degrees that's memorized the entire Bible may not be trusting/relying at all. Apples and oranges. Even though, I agree, the koine Greek word CAN have both meanings, depending on the context.


      Sorry for the 'off point'



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    5. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      From what I understand the word believe in the Bible is to put your whole faith and trust in. It isn't the same as an intellectual belief.
      I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    6. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?
      To the extent it is fact yes, as a saviour no. Since they exist in the spiritual it is seen and dioes not require faith per se.
      Isaiah 40:31

    7. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?

      See post 12
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    8. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?
      Using the terminology, etc. of your post, believing is greater than doing. But really, the question is flawed because it presumes that no doing on your behalf or my behalf has been done.

      The truth is that Christ did the doing. This is at the heart of the Gospel. If we had been able to do sufficiently, it would not have been necessary for us to have a Savior. Obviously, we were sent a Savior in order to do what we could not do by ourselves.

      Therefore, insisting that we are to equal or supplement his accomplishment misses one of the most basic truths of the Gospel.

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    10. #17
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      When the faithful think of salvation it is well to remember that Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11) and if salvation is nearer now than when you first believed then the faithful ought to remember that salvation is not an event in the past because were that so then salvation would recede into the past becoming further and further from the faithful rather than drawing nearer as an event that is yet future must. To boast that "I am saved, Jesus did it all 2,000 years ago" is to assert that salvation is receding from you now at a distance in time of 2,000 years and ever increasing in distance rather than being an approaching reward and blessing that God has prepared for the faithful to receive on the last day.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    11. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      When the faithful think of salvation it is well to remember that Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11) and if salvation is nearer now than when you first believed then the faithful ought to remember that salvation is not an event in the past because were that so then salvation would recede into the past becoming further and further from the faithful rather than drawing nearer as an event that is yet future must. To boast that "I am saved, Jesus did it all 2,000 years ago" is to assert that salvation is receding from you now at a distance in time of 2,000 years and ever increasing in distance rather than being an approaching reward and blessing that God has prepared for the faithful to receive on the last day.

      AGAIN, terms like "conversion" "salvation" "justification" "sanctification" etc. CAN have different senses and/or meanings, depending on the context. "Salvation" can be used broadly, to refer to all of soteriology. BUT, never (IMO) can these words in Scripture have a meaning that denounces Christianity and the Christian Gospel, NEVER have the meaning that Jesus was all a bad and irrelevant joke because self saves self (whether with divine HELP - the view of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism - or without). The central point of Christianity is that all NEED salvation and life, and that Jesus IS THE Savior (not just a helper, not just a possibility-maker) and that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of spiritual life (not just Offerer of such). When Scripture is spun... when theology is twisted.... so that Christianity is wrong, Jesus is not THE (singular, exclusive, all-sufficient SAVIOR) and the Holy Spirit is not THE (sole, singular, all-sufficient) GIVER of spiritual life, then it's wrong. Of course, that was the issue of the Reformation.



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    12. #19
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      you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11)

      There's no need to obfuscate the meaning of "salvation". Salvation is what it is and it is not yet complete. It is something we wait for and not something we remember from a distant past of which we have no direct memory. It is what we hope for. "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Romans 8.24-25)
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    14. #20
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      I don't see how to avoid making this a replay of justification, since it's essentially the same topic.

      I agree with the OP. The term is used in different ways. Both within Scripture and even more in theology.

      Jesus seems to use it in 2 ways
      * being saved in the end
      * changing from someone outside the Kingdom to inside; repentance

      Are we actually justified by faith? Yes, I think so. But you need to understand what faith is. According to the huge article in TDNT it is really the whole attitude of humans in response to God. It thus combines faith, faithfulness, trust, and even obedience. However in the NT it tends to mean primarily trust. I think that's the sense in which Jesus uses it. But Jesus doesn't say we are justified by faith. Paul does.

      For Paul there's a specific context. He is, as TDNT says, using it as one of two principles of salvation (the other being Law). For him the question is whether we rely on God for salvation or on our own obedience to the Law. Clearly our salvation comes from God, not anything we do. I don't think anyone disputes that. But he also teaches that we'll be judged by our actions -- or perhaps better, our lives -- although I think we have to be very careful about that to avoid a checklist mentality or legalism. So just because salvation is from God, independent of our own worthiness, doesn't remove the fact that we are held responsible for how we respond.

      Thus the common position that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement in accordance with works. I think the same is true of Jesus.

      But faith in this context is not "I think that's true."
      Last edited by hedrick; 05-25-2018 at 09:10 PM.

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