Salvation

psalms 91 said:

I apologize, I hit the wrong button so it shows that I edited your post but it is still there as originally posted. Now I would like to say that there is nothing in those scriptures to support that but I do know that God is drawing the Jewish people back but they will not leave this country till the monetary system fails which is another reason I see that this country is going to go through rough times.

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I understand your view as a dispensationalist, pretrib proponent. I held that view for a really long time and hold no grudge. Presently, I am amillenial and see Israel as the church.

MoreCoffee said:

The Lord, Jesus Christ, preached repent and believe in the gospel because the kingdom of God is at hand.

He didn't mention the kingdom of Israel.

God gave Israel judges to rule over them and when they rejected God as their king and refused to be ruled by judged God let them have a king over themselves; God chose Saul to rule them.

1 Samuel 8:1-22 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3 Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice. 4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, "Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. 9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them."

10 So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, "These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plough his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."

19 But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, "No! But there shall be a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles." 21 And when Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the ears of the LORD. 22 And the LORD said to Samuel, "Obey their voice and make them a king." Samuel then said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."​

The kingdom of Israel represents Israel's rejection of God so it could not be the kingdom of God that Jesus preached.

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Jesus is Messiah. He spoke under the Mosaic Covenant. I cannot change your mind when you reject the difference between the Mosaic and New Covenants.

MennoSota said:

I understand your view as a dispensationalist, pretrib proponent. I held that view for a really long time and hold no grudge. Presently, I am amillenial and see Israel as the church.

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The NATION of Israel???

Arsenios

"CALIFORNIA" refers to a mythical island in the Spanish novel "Las Sergas de Esplandián" by Montalvo. LATER, it was applied to an actual land in what was then northern Mexico (even though this land had nothing in common with the mythical one). Only a fool would think they are one and the same thing. "ISRAEL" in the Bible refers to a person, to the people of the Covenant, and to a Kingdom (which ended in 722 BC). Sure 2,669 years later, a political state CAN select whatever legal moniker for itself it chooses, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing (or even have anything in common).


Back to the topic....



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Arsenios said:

The NATION of Israel???

Arsenios

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The Israel of God.
"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel."
"This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but children of the promise are counted as offspring."
Romans 9:6-13

MoreCoffee said:

You are right to say that Jesus is the Messiah (or Christ). And when Jesus started his public ministry saint John the Baptist had already announced his coming and the beginning of the kingdom of God.

Mark 1:1-11 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,

"Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:

'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,'"​

4 John appeared, baptising in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptised by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying,

"After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptised you with water, but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit."​

9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptised by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."​

The transition from the old covenant to the new began with saint John the Baptist and was completed with the events of the passion of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

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Do you imagine that by repeatedly ignoring the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant you will eventually become correct in your position?
You cannot grasp the purpose of John's ministry and the role of Jesus earthly ministry to the nation of Israel, thus you conflagrate two issues and miss grace.

:focus:

MennoSota said:

I'm glad to clear up your misconception.

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Well at least it makes sense now...

We will not agree.

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Nobody said we had to...

The nation of Israel was promised a Messiah for which they waited.

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That's right, and they were looking for Him!

When John the Baptist preceded Jesus, he knew only the establishment and restoration of the earthly Kingdom of Israel, of which he declared the coming of Messiah.

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Have you read the Life of John the Baptist? Christ spoke of the death of his father, Zacharias, in His condemnation of the Jews, whose blood they spilled murdering him on the steps between the Temple and the Altar...

Matt. 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
from the blood of righteous Abel
unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Both his aging Mother and his Father were killed in persecutions while he was an infant, and he was raised outside the the city in the wilderness by angels and wild animals... He was not a part of the "establishment" of Israel at all... He first met Jesus when he was 6 months in Elizabeth's womb, and Christ had just been created in Mariam's womb - And he communed in the wilderness with angels and with God... Much like David, sent away from the Seat of Power as a cull from the stable of the strong sons of his father, who ended up being the only one to kill Goliath... He was not a part of the "establishment"... Even as Jesus came forth from Bethlehem, out of which no Prophet had ever come forth... This is why he wore a camel hair shirt, which almost no man can wear, and gird his loins in leather, and whose holy hands baptized the Creator of all creation in the waters of the Jordan, whom Christ named as the greatest of ALL the

We know this because when John was in prison he sent a messenger to Jesus to ask if Jesus was the Messiah.

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The same can be said of ALL the Apostles UNTIL Penecost...

Even John was clueless about the promise to the Israel of God, which encompasses both Jew and Gentile.

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The same can be said of ALL the Apostles UNTIL Pentecost... But I would argue LESS SO with John the Baptit...

John's call for repentance was to establish an earthly Kingdom.

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I know you THINK so, but you will not find anything in the Bible that has John preaching an earthly kingdom... He simply knew God and lived in that obedience seeking nothing worldly... So in this particular false belief, you have abandoned the Bible and honored your Scholastic roots by SPECULATING imaginatively and logically about a matter rather than relying on Revelation, eg Scripture, to provide yourself with Scriptural "knowledge"...

Since Jesus is Messiah, his message on earth (before the crucifixion and resurrection) was a repentance of Israel to establish a physical Kingdom of Israel.

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This is pure fanciful imagination, Menno...
Show me even ONE place in Scripture that states this falsehood...
It is simply a false inference on your part...

When Israel rejected Messiah, Jesus establishment of the promised New Covenant began.

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Indeed the covenant shifted to the Gentiles, through the second Pentecost of the Cornelius Baptisms... But it was and is the same Covenant of the Body and the Blood of our Lord which is NOT a worldly Kingdom, but the heavenly one...

The Old Testament Covenant was the Mosaic Law written on the lifeless tablets of stone for the hard hearted Jews, and the new Testament Covenant is Obedience to Christ's Commandments written in the living flesh or our hearts through our eating of His Body and drinking His Blood...

We see then, two different calls in the Gospel.

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From your own description these are two very different Gospels: One for a physical Israel to rule the world, and the other for a Spiritual Israel ruled spiritually by Christ...

The first was for physical Israel.

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I have never seen any call for a Physical Israel to rule the world...

The second is for all persons of the promise.

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Including the Christian Jews of Israel?

The Gospel was to have been passed through Israel to all the world, and when Israel rejected the Messiah, it still came through the Jews to all the world, via Peter and Paul primarily, then through Cornelius and on to the Gentile Churches which were also intersperced with Christian Jews...

Those who have ears to hear will believe as God awakens them and gives faith to exercise their belief.
We cannot agree if you cannot accept the distinction presented in scripture.

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I have not yet seen evidence for your assertion that this is all in the Bible... eg the two Gospels... Or, as you call them, the two Calls... John the Baptist is calling men to prepare for Christ by his Baptism of them unto repentance... Christ received this Baptism and transformed it into the abiding of the Holy Spirit... eg the New Creation divinizing man in Baptism into Christ...

Nothing there about the physical rule of Israel over the world...

Maybe this might help us - Complete this sentence:

IF Israel had received Christ as it Savior, then............... (eg what would have happened?)!

And thank-you again for this Physical Israel vs the Israel of God explanation of the two Gospels understanding...

It finally makes sense, even if I profoundly disagree with it...


Arsenios

Arsenios said:

Well at least it makes sense now...



Nobody said we had to...



That's right, and they were looking for Him!



Have you read the Life of John the Baptist? Christ spoke of the death of his father, Zacharias, in His condemnation of the Jews, whose blood they spilled murdering him on the steps between the Temple and the Altar...

Matt. 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
from the blood of righteous Abel
unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Both his aging Mother and his Father were killed in persecutions while he was an infant, and he was raised outside the the city in the wilderness by angels and wild animals... He was not a part of the "establishment" of Israel at all... He first met Jesus when he was 6 months in Elizabeth's womb, and Christ had just been created in Mariam's womb - And he communed in the wilderness with angels and with God... Much like David, sent away from the Seat of Power as a cull from the stable of the strong sons of his father, who ended up being the only one to kill Goliath... He was not a part of the "establishment"... Even as Jesus came forth from Bethlehem, out of which no Prophet had ever come forth... This is why he wore a camel hair shirt, which almost no man can wear, and gird his loins in leather, and whose holy hands baptized the Creator of all creation in the waters of the Jordan, whom Christ named as the greatest of ALL the



The same can be said of ALL the Apostles UNTIL Penecost...



The same can be said of ALL the Apostles UNTIL Pentecost... But I would argue LESS SO with John the Baptit...



I know you THINK so, but you will not find anything in the Bible that has John preaching an earthly kingdom... He simply knew God and lived in that obedience seeking nothing worldly... So in this particular false belief, you have abandoned the Bible and honored your Scholastic roots by SPECULATING imaginatively and logically about a matter rather than relying on Revelation, eg Scripture, to provide yourself with Scriptural "knowledge"...



This is pure fanciful imagination, Menno...
Show me even ONE place in Scripture that states this falsehood...
It is simply a false inference on your part...



Indeed the covenant shifted to the Gentiles, through the second Pentecost of the Cornelius Baptisms... But it was and is the same Covenant of the Body and the Blood of our Lord which is NOT a worldly Kingdom, but the heavenly one...

The Old Testament Covenant was the Mosaic Law written on the lifeless tablets of stone for the hard hearted Jews, and the new Testament Covenant is Obedience to Christ's Commandments written in the living flesh or our hearts through our eating of His Body and drinking His Blood...



From your own description these are two very different Gospels: One for a physical Israel to rule the world, and the other for a Spiritual Israel ruled spiritually by Christ...



I have never seen any call for a Physical Israel to rule the world...



Including the Christian Jews of Israel?

The Gospel was to have been passed through Israel to all the world, and when Israel rejected the Messiah, it still came through the Jews to all the world, via Peter and Paul primarily, then through Cornelius and on to the Gentile Churches which were also intersperced with Christian Jews...



I have not yet seen evidence for your assertion that this is all in the Bible... eg the two Gospels... Or, as you call them, the two Calls... John the Baptist is calling men to prepare for Christ by his Baptism of them unto repentance... Christ received this Baptism and transformed it into the abiding of the Holy Spirit... eg the New Creation divinizing man in Baptism into Christ...

Nothing there about the physical rule of Israel over the world...

Maybe this might help us - Complete this sentence:

IF Israel had received Christ as it Savior, then............... (eg what would have happened?)!

And thank-you again for this Physical Israel vs the Israel of God explanation of the two Gospels understanding...

It finally makes sense, even if I profoundly disagree with it...


Arsenios

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You have read the evidence, but you have twisted it.
Your history lesson seems to come from some apocryphal book that you view as important while I consider it an unimportant book. This is my conclusion due to the fact that you cannot find the history you presented in the 66 books of scripture.
It seems that such readings cause you to see things that are not biblically supported.
The Hebrew scriptures give us information regarding Messiah and the messenger who would herald his coming. We don't read any of the assertions you make and we never see John's message called the gospel. In fact we see the Apostles having to correct the flawed understanding of John's disciples in the book of Acts.
I will not change your mind or convince you of the errors you hold. I merely wish you lived by grace rather than by works.

MoreCoffee said:

The story told by saint Matthew goes like this:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds, and to his disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have sat down in the chair of Moses. Therefore, all things whatsoever that they shall say to you, observe and do. Yet truly, do not choose to act according to their works. For they say, but they do not do. For they bind up heavy and unbearable burdens, and they impose them on men"s shoulders. But they are not willing to move them with even a finger of their own. Truly, they do all their works so that they may be seen by men. For they enlarge their phylacteries and glorify their hems. And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues, and greetings in the marketplace, and to be called Master by men. But you must not be called Master. For One is your Master, and you are all brothers. And do not choose to call anyone on earth your father. For One is your Father, who is in heaven. Neither should you be called teachers. For One is your Teacher, the Christ. Whoever is greater among you shall be your minister. But whoever has exalted himself, shall be humbled. And whoever has humbled himself, shall be exalted.

So then: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you close the kingdom of heaven before men. For you yourselves do not enter, and those who are entering, you would not permit to enter.

Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you consume the houses of widows, praying long prayers. Because of this, you shall receive the greater judgement.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and by land, in order to make one convert. And when he has been converted, you make him twice the son of Hell that you are yourselves.

Woe to you, blind guides, who say: "Whoever will have sworn by the temple, it is nothing. But whoever will have sworn by the gold of the temple is obligated." You are foolish and blind! For which is greater: the gold, or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And you say: "Whoever will have sworn by the altar, it is nothing. But whoever will have sworn by the gift that is on the altar is obligated." How blind you are! For which is greater: the gift, or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears by it, and by all that is on it. And whoever will have sworn by the temple, swears by it, and by him who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God, and by him who sits upon it.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you collect tithes on mint and dill and cumin, but you have abandoned the weightier things of the law: judgement and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, while not omitting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat, while swallowing a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you clean what is outside the cup and the dish, but on the inside you are full of avarice and impurity. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the dish, and then what is outside becomes clean.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly appear brilliant to men, yet truly, inside, they are filled with the bones of the dead and with all filth. So also, you certainly appear to men outwardly to be just. But inwardly you are filled with hypocrisy and iniquity.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites, who build the sepulchres of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the just. And then you say, "If we had been there in the days of our fathers, we would not have joined with them in the blood of the prophets." And so you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets. Complete, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers! How will you escape from the judgement of Hell? For this reason, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men, and scribes. And some of these you will put to death and crucify; and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall all the blood of the just, which has been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall fall upon this generation. Matthew 23:1-36​

If the intention of the Lord is to span the ages to show the crimes of the scribes and Pharisees whom he calls hypocrites then starting at the beginning of the ages with the murder of Able by his brother Cain, both of whom were priests of God who offered to the Lord, to the most recent day murder of the father of saint John the Baptist whose father was named Zechariah as saint Luke testifies then what brother Arsenios said was well said.

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Matthew 23
[35]As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.

Nothing about "saint john." It seems some monk added stuff to your translation that Matthew never wrote.
In any case, John the Baptist call was for repentance that did not refer to salvation of a person's soul.

MennoSota said:

Matthew 23
[35]As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.

Nothing about "saint john." It seems some monk added stuff to your translation that Matthew never wrote.
In any case, John the Baptist call was for repentance that did not refer to salvation of a person's soul.

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That Zacharia, son of Barekiah, is the father of John the Baptist, and husband of Elizabeth, whom the Mother of Jesus met with, just after she had conceived Christ in her womb, and Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant with John the Baptist in her womb... He was killed between the Altar and the Temple...

Most sola folks simply do not know which Zachariah Christ was referring to in his indictment of the ruling Jews... Even when his name is included in the very Gospel Book in which Christ indicts them... That is simply one of the limits of Sola-Myopia...

Arsenios

:focus:

MoreCoffee said:

Amen, saint John was beheaded by order of Herod Antipas'. It was saint John's father Zechariah who was slain between the sanctuary and the altar.

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There is no scripture for that. You may have a tradition somewhere, or a monk's addition that is not authentic, but there is no scripture to confirm your assertion.

Arsenios said:

That Zacharia, son of Barekiah, is the father of John the Baptist, and husband of Elizabeth, whom the Mother of Jesus met with, just after she had conceived Christ in her womb, and Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant with John the Baptist in her womb... He was killed between the Altar and the Temple...

Most sola folks simply do not know which Zachariah Christ was referring to in his indictment of the ruling Jews... Even when his name is included in the very Gospel Book in which Christ indicts them... That is simply one of the limits of Sola-Myopia...

Arsenios

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You are wrong. I will leave it at that.