For RC and EO - What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?

Lamb

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Might I ask you to respond to the two posts I wrote above?

I mean, this is not a deposition, but perhaps a conversation??

Arsenios

My response is this...I see that Christ's death on the cross actually forgives all our sins. You see it as a potential forgiveness of sins dependent on something YOU then have to finish. Is that accurate?
 

Arsenios

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My response is this...I see that Christ's death on the cross actually forgives all our sins. You see it as a potential forgiveness of sins dependent on something YOU then have to finish. Is that accurate?

No... Not accurrate...

But thank you for replying...

One more time:
God forgives sins...
God's "work" on the cross does NOT forgive sins...
Baptism is unto the forgiveness of sins, remember?

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

The baptism of repentance by John is for the remission of sins...

And moreso being Baptized into Christ...

Repent, and be baptized every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


And here, you may think, Christ contradicts this:

Matt 26:28
For this is My Blood of the New T estament,
which is shed for many
for the remission of sins.


His Blood was shed for the sake of the remission of our sins...
This means that He GAVE His Life for our sakes...
It does not mean that His WORK on the Cross forgives our sins...
God forgives, as God Justifies, as God Saves, as God Sanctifies...
God does not need to do WORKS on the Cross in order to forgive us our sins...

Arsenios
 

Lamb

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He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 The sacrifice was at the cross. God didn't need to use the cross but He chose to do it that way for our redemption. I find it strange that you deny the cross the way you do?
 

Arsenios

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I find it strange that you deny the cross the way you do?

Me too...
It IS the Atoning Sacrifice, but this is because we are baptized into His Death...
It is the Life-Giving Sacrifice because we are baptized into His Life...
We are baptized, you see, into Christ...
And this Christ lived and died and took up the death of Adam and re-fashion our Human Nature in Himself... Even in His Own Body... And He did this all for us, that we should find Salvation IN HIM from our death in Adam...

Are we to follow Christ and ascend the Cross that we embrace His Salvation so freely Given unto us...??

Arsenios
 

Lamb

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Our following Christ does not make us anymore of a Christian. We are His because He has given us faith to believe in Him and the forgiveness of sins won at the cross. It's about identity.

You admit that his death on the cross was atoning...but yet you still are unsure that you're going to have eternity with God? Do you see how you are not actually trusting in the atonement with that uncertainty?
 

MoreCoffee

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Our following Christ does not make us anymore of a [follower of Christ] Christian.

"Christians" means follower of Christ. Didn't you know that? Or is your statement like a "trick question" kind of thing.

We are His because He has given us faith to believe in Him and the forgiveness of sins won at the cross. It's about identity.

You admit that his death on the cross was atoning...but yet you still are unsure that you're going to have eternity with God? Do you see how you are not actually trusting in the atonement with that uncertainty?
 

Lamb

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Why did you take it upon yourself to change what I wrote? I don't like that. Don't change my words please because it shows you didn't understand what I was writing. If you didn't understand then just ask.

Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
Our following Christ does not make us anymore of a [follower of Christ] Christian.
 

Arsenios

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Our following Christ does not make us anymore of a Christian.

If I may...

My Church [Antiochian] is where the followers of Christ were first called Christians...

Act_11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch.
And it came to pass,
that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church,
and taught much people.
And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Prior to Antioch, you see, they were called the Followers of the Way...
And Christ Himself said: I AM the Way...

So IF you are not following Christ, you are not much of a Christian...

Christians are those who are following Christ...

Christianity without following Christ is not Christianity...


We are His because He has given us faith to believe in Him and the forgiveness of sins won at the cross. It's about identity.

I know you believe this, and it is true that without Christ we can do nothing... And every bit of what is good comes from Christ... Yet it is WE who are DOING what God GIVES us to be doing... Even and especially repentance...

IF you remove repentance from the human side of Salvation, you destroy the Salvation Christ is giving to man...

You admit that his death on the cross was atoning...

Yes, and I understand that atonement much differently than you do...

but yet you still are unsure that you're going to have eternity with God?

There is no height so high that man on earth cannot fall from it...
So no, I do not stick my proud chest out, and raise my nose skyward, and join with the Pharisee in arrogant thanks to God for preselecting ME instead of THE OTHER GUY, AND ESPECIALLY THAT SINNER OVER THERE, THAT DIRTY-DOG NO-ACCOUNT TAX COLLECTOR!

Do you see how you are not actually trusting in the atonement with that uncertainty?

I trust God, not man... I am a man, not God...

We are to persevere to the end, if we believe Paul...

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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Why did you take it upon yourself to change what I wrote? I don't like that. Don't change my words please because it shows you didn't understand what I was writing. If you didn't understand then just ask.

Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
Our following Christ does not make us anymore of a [follower of Christ] Christian.

My apologies. Evidently you're not familiar with the use of square brackets to show an inclusion by an editor - or if you do know about that convention then for some reason you've not acknowledged that it was used by me to show what your post in effect says since "christian" does in fact mean "follower of Christ".
 

Lamb

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My apologies. Evidently you're not familiar with the use of square brackets to show an inclusion by an editor - or if you do know about that convention then for some reason you've not acknowledged that it was used by me to show what your post in effect says since "christian" does in fact mean "follower of Christ".

Do NOT on this site change a user's post in a quote.
 

Lamb

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Allow me to clarify since you gentlemen prefer to not ask what I mean ...

As Christians we BELIEVE the Christ and forgiveness of sins that He won at the cross for us. THAT is our identity and anything we do after initially believing/trusting does not make us any more of a Christian. A sheep does not become any more of a sheep because he lives in the valley with the shepherd...he already is. An adopted child does not become more of an adopted child by learning more about His Father and doing chores for him.
 

MoreCoffee

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Do NOT on this site change a user's post in a quote.

Why not? Mine are changed occasionally. And the fact remains that "Christian" means "follower of Christ".
 

psalms 91

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Why not? Mine are changed occasionally. And the fact remains that "Christian" means "follower of Christ".

Couldnt you just state that in a post without changing hers?
 

Albion

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Lamb

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Why not? Mine are changed occasionally. And the fact remains that "Christian" means "follower of Christ".

As Admin of this site I'm saying DO NOT edit quoted posts so that you're changing what the author wrote.

I will make a post in the Community forum with specific details on what and what is not acceptable so that this thread can get back on topic.
 

MoreCoffee

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As Admin of this site I'm saying DO NOT edit quoted posts so that you're changing what the author wrote.

I will make a post in the Community forum with specific details on what and what is not acceptable so that this thread can get back on topic.

Do as you please; make a new rule if you want to.
 

Lamb

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Arsenios

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I would like to propose a simple example of atonement that is not theological, but may bring a little light to the conversation... Because to atone means to make right, does it not? If I walk across your lawn and leave foot indentations into the soil on a rainy day tearing it up, then how can I atone for my misdeed? There are a lot of ways to do so, and saying I am sorry is a start, and so is compensating you so you can get it fixed, and so is fixint the lawn for you to your satisfaction...

Now a child is a messy little thing - Plays with toys and runs off leaving them scattered about, and for this little matter, Moms and Dads often just pick them up and toss them into the toy-box, thus atoning for the child's messiness... Some make the child clean up the mess...

Christ by ascending the Cross made an atoning Sacrifice for us, and the question is, how does that Sacrifice make things right between man and God that had gone awry in Adam's Transgression?

Some tell us that Christ "WORKED" on the Cross for us and "EARNED" our atonement with the Father as payment for all the work He did up there... That view is not Orthodox...

Christ picked up where Adam left off witth sin and death - He entered into Adam's death without sinning, and continued where Adam could not because of death... He overcame the power of death, and plundered Hades of its spoils... His Sacrifice on the Cross was an offering of Himself to His Father for us IN Him...

It just sounds wierd to say that Christ earned our forgiveness of sins by all that work He did up there on the Cross... He did suffer, and by His Sufferings are our wounds healed, that following Him in co-suffering with Him, we should overcome sin... for we are baptized INTO His Death on the Cross... That means suffering... For Lo through the Cross is Joy come into all the world...

Enough - Sorry for the side-tracking this thread suffered...

Arsenios
 

Lamb

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1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
 

Arsenios

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1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Christ Who is without sin suffered and died for the sin of Adam who sinned when he was sinless...
Christ is the second Adam...
We are born into the first Adam...
We are re-born into the second Adam, Christ...

The MEANS of this rebirth is Baptism into Christ...
We are CALLED to repentance from sin unto Baptism into Christ in Whom we are now Justified because we have been baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross... In willful denial of self under the discipling of the Body of Christ, having been therein received into the Body BY that Body of Christ by Christ baptizing us into Him, we receive unto ourselves the suffering of the Cross that Christ suffered unto Death... We enter into a martyric Way of Life in self-denial and voluntary suffering unto death... And in this we find great Joy, not the joy of the world, but the Joy Christ gives to us...

This is quintessentially what Christ has Given to us by ascending the Cross for us - He has established His Way of salvation upon the earth, and we are to FOLLOW Him in that Way of Life on Earth, for we are baptized INTO Christ, INTO His Death on the Cross, into His Holy Resurrection...

Our following of Christ is ours to establish... Our own willingness to be willing... Christ will give us the strength to will, and indeed the willingness to do His Will, but only if we are willing, and this willingness is a matter of DOING to the extent of our strength the Will of God, and when we do this, God will Strengthen us in Him, for we are members of His Body, and He is our Head...

And in ALL this we affirm the Mystery of the Faith, which Paul tells us is held in a purified conscience, and that purification is held in suffering in repentance from sin for the sake of others... In utter denial of self... That is where we find maturity, perfection, in Christ - Where no thought of self determines anything in us...

Out of the Waters of Regeneration we are new-born in Christ and still need to grow up in Him...
Few become perfected in this Faith...
Most live secular lives in as much of the Faith as we can manage to do...
Yet this life itself is blessed if we persevere in the struggle...

This Faith is a lifelong STRUGGLE against sin in Christ...
A struggle to be embraced in Love to the end...

God bless you, Lammchen...


Arsenios
 
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