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    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: For RC and EO - What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you?

    1. #41
      jsimms435's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      Not EO or RC myself, but I was RC and I know the answer.

      It means that because of Jesus sacrifice we have the chance to be saved...depending on whether we work hard enough to merit it. In other words, before Christ came nothing men could do, including keeping the Law, was good enough to merit salvation; but because of Christ taking on our sins, all that we do to please God hereafter will be counted by him for a change. We may make the grade, or we may not, but we get the opportunity to try.
      that sounds like you could never be sure that you made it until you die then?

    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion
      Not EO or RC myself,
      but I was RC
      and I know the answer.


      It means that because of Jesus sacrifice we have the chance to be saved...depending on whether we work hard enough to merit it. In other words, before Christ came nothing men could do, including keeping the Law, was good enough to merit salvation; but because of Christ taking on our sins, all that we do to please God hereafter will be counted by him for a change. We may make the grade, or we may not, but we get the opportunity to try.
      Quote Originally Posted by jsimms435 View Post
      that sounds like you could never be sure that you made it until you die then?
      I think the Latins are weak in their understanding of Soteriology on this point, for they seem to advocate that our works earn our Salvation, and cite James words that state quite plainly: "For a man is Justified out of Works, and not by Faith Alone." James 2:24 And this they do when they ascribe MERIT to works, and then ascribe a certain AMOUNT of Merit that a saint needs, and then EXCESS Merit which the Saint can then bestow on others who are somehow LACKING in Merit, so as to give them Salvation which they have not themselves Merited...

      Hence the idea that Salvation is EARNED...

      Yet the Greek does not use the "dative of agency" which would clearly make Salvation the product of works, as it does with the term "by Grace" (are you saved through the Faith, and this not out of yourselves, of God the Gift...") in Ephesians... And in the Ephesians passage, you will see the usage of the EK +genetive as we did in James...

      So James tells us we are Justified by God EK (out of) works...
      And Ephesians tells us we are Saved BY [His) Grace THROUGH the Faith...
      And Ephesians also tells us that regarding being Saved, "OF GOD the Gift..."

      So we have a contrast between Justification and Salvation...
      Between "out of" self and "out of" works...
      Between BY Grace and OUT OF (be it works or self)...

      So the whole matter can seem muddied indeed with lots of varieties of apples and oranges...

      So one approach is to see this all as a big puzzle to be figured out, a kind of cosmic crossword puzzle that we can try all the various possible combinations ot terms and meanings, and pick the one that makes the most sense to us...

      Another approach is to take one meaning that we are very certain about, and then weave all the reas around that one solidly established understanding... eg "Works EARN Salvation" or "Man contributes nothing to God's Salvation..." or "Faith and works are two sides of the same coin..." or some such as these...

      One can cite the Authority of the Church and take the meaning from Church Pronouncements...
      One can cite the Authority of Scripture and pronounce one's Scriptural proofs...
      These two authoritarian approaches seem very much at war here...

      Then there is the Orthodox Patristic Approach, which asks: "On this matter, what do the Church Fathers say on this matter? What has the Church believed from the beginnings? What has the Church believed at all times and in all places?" And what have the OEcumenical Councils written regarding a particular question?

      And fortunately, on this matter, we can join the Latin Church with the Eastern Church IF we restrict ourselves to the first thousand years of Church History...

      Here is one such commentary citing John Chrysostom: https://sites.google.com/site/mattol...8-9-chrysostom

      Here is another citing Pope Leo of Rome in the 5th Century: http://thisholysword.blogspot.com/20...ians-28-9.html

      One major point that he makes is that Paul writes his Epistles as a PASTOR, and NOT as a THEOLOGIAN...
      This is a crucial distinction, because systematic theology is not what Paul is doing, but instead he is pastoring his flock in a specific place where specific issues are being addressed... He is not theologically training his students... He is pastoring his flock... Hence Paul will not be writing for theological precision, but instead for pastoral benefit...

      And we are all aware how so many pastors give great sermons that do not have much exegetical exactitute regarding the Biblical text they are taking as their jumping off point... Indeed, Chrysostom himself regarded himself as a Pastor and not as a theologian, in his own personal emulation of Paul wherein he wrote his Great Pauline Commantary...

      What this bodes for us is that we do "theological studies" of Paul at our peril exegetically...

      Let this be enough for now...

      Are we too off topic?

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 06-16-2018 at 01:42 PM.

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